Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos?

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Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos, and allow those games to be ranked?

Yes, I like the proposed change to make draws possible but not rewarded.
8
67%
No, I prefer having the current option to prevent all draws, even if it means the game must be unranked.
3
25%
Wait, that was an option?
1
8%
 
Total votes : 12

Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 14 May 2019, 16:44

Right now, "No draws allowed" (a.k.a. Solos-Only) games are all unranked. In my opinion, this is entirely reasonable, as it's common for Diplomacy games to end up in a stalemate situation. It's unrealistic to set a requirement that the game cannot end in a draw.

But what if we changed it from "No Draws Allowed" to "Only Reward Solos"?

Ranked games with that option would work as follows:
  1. First, if a solo occurs, and the game is ranked, scoring would occur exactly as it does for other ranked games. The winner gets points; everyone else loses points.
  2. Second, draws including all survivors (with secret ballots) would be allowed.
  3. However, if a draw occurs in an "Only Reward Solos" game, no players (including those eliminated) would receive a ratings points change. It would be as if the game had been unranked.
  4. Players that surrender or are booted for NMRs would still receive the same penalty as if they'd lost to a solo.

To be clear, this would not provide the exact same game experience that the "No Draws Allowed" option currently provides. But it might provide a way to play something similar to that experience in a ranked context. It would make draws possible (which frankly, in this game, they always should be). But draws would not be particularly desirable except as an alternative to losing to a solo. It would not encourage draw-whittling (since the number of survivors in a draw wouldn't matter).
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Re: Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos?

Postby Don Juan of Austria » 14 May 2019, 17:07

...but if players only played this type of game, they'd never lose points, and only gain points, assuming they succeeded in soloing just every once in awhile.
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Re: Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 14 May 2019, 17:50

Don Juan of Austria wrote:...but if players only played this type of game, they'd never lose points, and only gain points, assuming they succeeded in soloing just every once in awhile.

They would lose points if someone else solos.
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Re: Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos?

Postby asudevil » 14 May 2019, 18:47

But with the solo boost it may skew things
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Re: Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 14 May 2019, 18:55

asudevil wrote:But with the solo boost it may skew things

True.

The boost could still exist, but its value would be need to be based on the number of players that surrender/NMR out of games that end in draws; such games would represent negative points overall and could theoretically be split among solo-earners in other games (making the system still approximately zero-sum, as it is now).

Or the boost could just go away for this type of game. Considering that there'd be no option for 2-way or 3-way draws, the solo would still remain an ample bonus with respect to the next-highest result (zero).
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Re: Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos?

Postby jay65536 » 14 May 2019, 20:36

I see one, but (so far) only one, potential problem with introducing this option:

This sort of rating structure means that an eliminated player might see their rating go down, and might see their rating stay unchanged, based on whether the other players in the game play out a solo or a draw. This means that a player who is eliminated will see their rating change (or not) due to factors out of their control. This seems unfair compared to what you'd see normally. Although I guess the other side of the argument is that since such a player has already lost, the unfairness of it can only help pad their rating, not unfairly lower it.
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Re: Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 14 May 2019, 20:53

jay65536 wrote:I see one, but (so far) only one, potential problem with introducing this option:

This sort of rating structure means that an eliminated player might see their rating go down, and might see their rating stay unchanged, based on whether the other players in the game play out a solo or a draw. This means that a player who is eliminated will see their rating change (or not) due to factors out of their control. This seems unfair compared to what you'd see normally. Although I guess the other side of the argument is that since such a player has already lost, the unfairness of it can only help pad their rating, not unfairly lower it.


True, though that's also the case for C-Diplo and Carnage.
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Re: Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos?

Postby jay65536 » 14 May 2019, 21:45

NoPunIn10Did wrote:that's also the case for C-Diplo and Carnage.


I'm not a fan of that in those systems either!

At the very least, putting my opinion aside, it's something people should be aware of when considering this idea.
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Re: Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos?

Postby super_dipsy » 15 May 2019, 07:40

I wonder if this would make pickup of surrendered positions less likely? Sometimes players pick up a surrendered position because they can see a realistic chance of at least squeezing themselves into a draw. If they know there is no rating incentive for that, then it may discourage those people who focus on ratings from joining I guess.
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Re: Replace No Draws Allowed option with Only Reward Solos?

Postby Mr.E » 15 May 2019, 08:08

Even by my standards my first response to this was overly scathing, so this is a more... considered response.

Scoring systems need to compare like with like if they are to be meaningful. As soon as you have differences between games that are included in a scoring system, the reason for scoring those games is reduced.

Solo Only games are very different to games that end otherwise. I don't see a problem with them being scored but in a separate system of ratings.

The proposed change doesn't alter anything as far as comparing games goes. The new type of game is still very different to how every other game ends. Score it by all means, but separately, otherwise it makes the ratings incomparable.

It also clearly doesn't only reward - score - solos. It rewards a certain type of draw. It doesn't do what it says on the tin.

If you want to play a rated version of Solos Only games, for me, that's fine. But whatever way you want to structure any game, the only way to have a meaningful scoring system is if games are equivalently comparable, and this - in any form - isn't comparable with other games on Playdip.
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