Bug: Player with zero SCs included in voting and draw

If the judge doesn't behave correctly or you found another problem, report it here!
Forum rules
Bugs
In addition to the general Forum Guidelines (see here: viewtopic.php?f=130&t=15441), there are additional rules for posting in this forum.
1. Members should read the ‘Bugs Forum Guidelines’ thread.
2. In rare situations members have been known to post false bug reports in order to affect the game. This is considered cheating.
3. Please don't post information that might be detrimental to the game, such as revealing the power who sent a message. If further information is required by Admin to investigate the bug, you will be asked to provide it.
If the game a bug may have occurred in is anonymous, including Gunboat and Public Press Only, it is best to send a Private Message to the SITE HELP! group or to post using the Dolph Shtoss account rather than break anonymity.

Bug: Player with zero SCs included in voting and draw

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 13 Jul 2018, 15:42

https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play_details.php?game_id=145215

We just finished a game where we voted on a draw, and one player (Germany) had no SCs. They were included in both the voting and the eventual draw.

For our sake, we were playing by C-Diplo rules, so draw size doesn't actually matter to us. But this strikes me as a bug, regardless. A player should be considered eliminated after Fall Retreats, rather than after the build phase.
NoPunIn10Did
Organizer for the Classicist C-Diplo Series

Variant GM, Designer & Collaborator
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1578
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 1363
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Bug? Player with zero SCs included in voting and draw

Postby super_dipsy » 13 Jul 2018, 15:59

NoPunIn10Did wrote: A player should be considered eliminated after Fall Retreats, rather than after the build phase.

i know it seems a bit crazy, but those are the rules as written. The rules (p17) clearly state that the check of SC ownership is always done at the start of the adjustment phase, after the Retreats/Disbands phase has happened.
p17.PNG
p17.PNG (23.56 KiB) Viewed 120 times
User avatar
super_dipsy
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11436
Joined: 04 Nov 2009, 17:43
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (956)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Bug? Player with zero SCs included in voting and draw

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 13 Jul 2018, 16:07

super_dipsy wrote:
NoPunIn10Did wrote: A player should be considered eliminated after Fall Retreats, rather than after the build phase.

i know it seems a bit crazy, but those are the rules as written. The rules (p17) clearly state that the check of SC ownership is always done at the start of the adjustment phase, after the Retreats/Disbands phase has happened.
p17.PNG


Yes, I know, but that's not what happened here. The adjustment phase had already started, and SC ownership had already changed hands. The player was by all definitions eliminated.
NoPunIn10Did
Organizer for the Classicist C-Diplo Series

Variant GM, Designer & Collaborator
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1578
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 1363
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Bug: Player with zero SCs included in voting and draw

Postby kimbyrle » 13 Jul 2018, 16:50

I'll verify this. Retreats were done. We were in Builds.
Aspiring Member of the Classicists!
Bearer of the Aura of Greater Towniness

FIRSTLOVE
Her?
User avatar
kimbyrle
Premium Member
 
Posts: 4152
Joined: 28 Jun 2017, 20:54
Location: Arlington, VA
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: 1018
All-game rating: 1018
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Bug: Player with zero SCs included in voting and draw

Postby super_dipsy » 13 Jul 2018, 16:59

Ah I see. The Build phase had started but the player still had a unit and the draw offer was at that point still open and valid. Even more crazy :) However, sadly there is still evidence this follows what was written although now it is less clear since we allow not just DIAS but a modification where we can choose players in the draw. The rules as written of course only have the concept of DIAS. Here is what it says on p1

p1.PNG
p1.PNG (10.45 KiB) Viewed 104 times


Becuase units are removed at the end of the adjustment phase, and at the point the german player accepted the draw he still had a unit on the board, then the rules say he is in the draw.

I know sometimes following the rules too slavishly seems a bit silly. There is no reason why we should not discuss a deviation here, like we have for draws that are not DIAS. We could say for example that once you enter a Build phase in which you are going to go down to 0 units and 0 centres then you are automatically removed from any draws. But if we do want to do that, we will need to do some sort of poll becuase people get pretty touchy when we put in deviations.
User avatar
super_dipsy
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11436
Joined: 04 Nov 2009, 17:43
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (956)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Bug: Player with zero SCs included in voting and draw

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 13 Jul 2018, 17:06

super_dipsy wrote:Ah I see. The Build phase had started but the player still had a unit and the draw offer was at that point still open and valid. Even more crazy :) However, sadly there is still evidence this follows what was written although now it is less clear since we allow not just DIAS but a modification where we can choose players in the draw. The rules as written of course only have the concept of DIAS. Here is what it says on p1

p1.PNG


Becuase units are removed at the end of the adjustment phase, and at the point the german player accepted the draw he still had a unit on the board, then the rules say he is in the draw.

I know sometimes following the rules too slavishly seems a bit silly. There is no reason why we should not discuss a deviation here, like we have for draws that are not DIAS. We could say for example that once you enter a Build phase in which you are going to go down to 0 units and 0 centres then you are automatically removed from any draws. But if we do want to do that, we will need to do some sort of poll becuase people get pretty touchy when we put in deviations.


The only reason this matters is because we're already breaking the rules regarding negotiations during the build phase. In face-to-face, you don't normally vote on draws during builds or retreats, as you're not supposed to be negotiating at that point. A draw proposal / vote is, in effect, a negotiation.

Because an online game can't resolve builds and retreats immediately, this particular rule makes zero sense to follow based on units on the board. I don't think you need a poll for this; instead, just see in the database how many games have ended in a draw that included a player with zero SCs. I would guess that it's only occurred inadvertently, when players didn't realize that a zero-SC player would actually be included.
NoPunIn10Did
Organizer for the Classicist C-Diplo Series

Variant GM, Designer & Collaborator
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1578
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 1363
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Bug: Player with zero SCs included in voting and draw

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 13 Jul 2018, 18:50

Another edge case:
What if someone has 1 SC and no units? If that SC isn't a build SC, I could see the case for omitting them from a draw, but what if they do have a build coming up?

In such a scenario, if playing strictly by the printed rules (with the "no units" standard), no draw vote would occur before that player had a chance to make such a build.

For online games, the standard should be based solely on supply centers, not units. In variants where players can start without supply centers, I'd simply prevent any draw votes until the first Adjustments phase has started.
NoPunIn10Did
Organizer for the Classicist C-Diplo Series

Variant GM, Designer & Collaborator
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1578
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 1363
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Bug: Player with zero SCs included in voting and draw

Postby super_dipsy » 13 Jul 2018, 19:54

That's a good point to support a new entry on our 'rules interpretation' list :) . As it is written it is even more crazy. I will raise a suggestion to make the change.
User avatar
super_dipsy
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11436
Joined: 04 Nov 2009, 17:43
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (956)
Timezone: GMT


Return to Bugs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests