PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

[Woolgie]

I've just checked and it is apparently May. Sorry, I was using the new calendar, where it is the 45th of Q. As it is now May I will make sure to get the next round of games up by the end of Monday 4th.

[jay65536]

D1 March B ends in a 4way draw. A surprising (to me anyway) result; looking forward to seeing if there is a good AAR. We'll also have to wait until player identities are revealed for the February game to see what the new standings will be.

I also noticed in this game's public press a comment from France about how he wished the draw voting was not secret ballot. I'm quite intrigued by that, as secret ballot is considered to be 100% standard in competitive games, in my experience. Now that the anonymity has been removed, I'm very curious, MasterGR: was this a negotiating ploy or do you actually believe open ballot is better than secret? And if so, why?

[MasterGR]

D1 March B ends in a 4way draw. A surprising (to me anyway) result; looking forward to seeing if there is a good AAR. We'll also have to wait until player identities are revealed for the February game to see what the new standings will be.

I also noticed in this game's public press a comment from France about how he wished the draw voting was not secret ballot. I'm quite intrigued by that, as secret ballot is considered to be 100% standard in competitive games, in my experience. Now that the anonymity has been removed, I'm very curious, MasterGR: was this a negotiating ploy or do you actually believe open ballot is better than secret? And if so, why?

Jay, France here from D1 March B. I wrote in my AAR why I didn't push for a better result, but in summary I had to finish the game by May 8th for personal reasons, and unless I agreed to a 4-way now that wouldn't had been possible in my estimate. As So even though I could had achieved a better result, real life takes precedence.

To answer your second question, I do think that Open Ballot has a few advantages diplomatically. Basically, it can be used to expose a player's real intentions, for example by offering a draw to someone who's probably looking to solo. Basically, in my view it's a diplomatic tool. However, with the secret ballot that tool is gone, as you can even offer a draw and reject it, so it applies no diplomatic pressure.

[jay65536]

I don't have time for a long reply now, but the topic of open vs. secret draw voting (as well as DIAS vs. noDIAS) already has a thread devoted to it: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=59628

I still stand by almost all, if not all, of what I wrote there over a year ago.

It sounds from your response like we agree on what the effect of open voting is; we just seem to disagree on whether that's a good thing. Also, we seem to disagree on the merits of secret ballots. I've played many games with secret ballots, and I can tell you from experience, secret ballot doesn't apply "no" diplomatic pressure; it just applies different pressure than open ballot. If you're in a secret ballot game, you vote in favor of a draw, and it fails, the negotiations might turn to "who voted this draw down and why?" If no one wants to admit to it, it's a whole new layer of intrigue.

[MasterGR]

I don't have time for a long reply now, but the topic of open vs. secret draw voting (as well as DIAS vs. noDIAS) already has a thread devoted to it: https://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/vie ... 31&t=59628

I still stand by almost all, if not all, of what I wrote there over a year ago.

It sounds from your response like we agree on what the effect of open voting is; we just seem to disagree on whether that's a good thing. Also, we seem to disagree on the merits of secret ballots. I've played many games with secret ballots, and I can tell you from experience, secret ballot doesn't apply "no" diplomatic pressure; it just applies different pressure than open ballot. If you're in a secret ballot game, you vote in favor of a draw, and it fails, the negotiations might turn to "who voted this draw down and why?" If no one wants to admit to it, it's a whole new layer of intrigue.

Perhaps you're right, I've only played a few games with secret ballot. I actually find that since nobody knows who voted for what, people just glance over a secret ballot that was rejected and move on. I read your post, and I also disagree with you with DIAS, I really dislike that format! But, since this thread is about PDL I'll stop here.

[Groo]

I don't have time for a long reply now, but the topic of open vs. secret draw voting (as well as DIAS vs. noDIAS) already has a thread devoted to it: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=59628

I still stand by almost all, if not all, of what I wrote there over a year ago.

It sounds from your response like we agree on what the effect of open voting is; we just seem to disagree on whether that's a good thing. Also, we seem to disagree on the merits of secret ballots. I've played many games with secret ballots, and I can tell you from experience, secret ballot doesn't apply "no" diplomatic pressure; it just applies different pressure than open ballot. If you're in a secret ballot game, you vote in favor of a draw, and it fails, the negotiations might turn to "who voted this draw down and why?" If no one wants to admit to it, it's a whole new layer of intrigue.

I'm with jay on this one.
In short, I think secret ballot is better for a leader who wants to solo (the option to start a draw vote and decline it yourself, it makes the game more dynamic), while an open ballot is better for a "stop the leader alliance" who just want to make the game more static and close it out.

BTW When do the new rounds start?

[jay65536]

MasterGR: feel free to revive the old thread if you have more thoughts on draw voting! This thread being for PDL, I could use that thread to reply to your last comment on your secret ballot experience as well. I said earlier that secret ballot is standard in competitive games; in fact, so is noDIAS (under draw-based scoring systems anyway). I am in the minority among serious players in that I have a soft spot for it, although I think noDIAS can be good for more serious games too.

[MasterGR]

Groo, you can see the schedule here: viewtopic.php?f=817&t=60357

It appears that you and I are playing again in July, check if you also have any games before that.

And regarding the secret ballot, yes I can see your arguments. I think I have benefited from secret ballots in general in the few games I’ve played with them, once even because somebody else was rejecting the draw but I ended up soloing... Go figure!

[Groo]

thanks Master GR. I'm too stupid to understand that table, but I found this sheet Ben made (color-coded for people like me)
LINK TO LEAGUE TABLE

Our next game could easily be even more challenging

Deja, Groo, Ironcladsoldier, Master GR, Mr Aedron, mjparett and V....Nice company!

I'd check for hidden knives before letting any of us in the club if I were security

[Custer]

Thanks Groo! I like that table!

Custer