A Very SPECIAL Game Thread of Mafia

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Re: A Very SPECIAL Game Thread of Mafia

Postby Durga » 12 Jul 2019, 07:06

This whole "who else would you vote for thing" is total garbage. I could come up with any reason to vote Fatmo, you, or Nook. So could Aes. That's what playing scum is about. It's creating town mislynches. Is this your best line of attack?
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Re: A Very SPECIAL Game Thread of Mafia

Postby Conq » 12 Jul 2019, 07:11

Durga wrote:You aren't even telling me what's scummy about my play. You're just asserting I look off because in your mind I haven't "obv towned". Oh and maybe I lurked a bit more than usual because I'm busy and this isn't webdip. I've done this in other playdip games where you've town read me. Come on Conq, come up with real reasons. I'm happy to battle with you.

Why is weird I town read Fatmo? Frankly I don't know if he's town, but it's your play that's way scummier and off your meta imo.

What about this seems fake? Don't just assert it. I've given you plenty of content to work with here. Tell me what makes me scummy, in your words, please.

Sure. A few things off the top of my head:

(1) You keep saying things like it’s just so obvious that you’re Town that me not think you are Town means you must be scum. But...from my point of view, you can only be Town if Fatmo is scum, and that just seems unlikely. And so, let’s say you are in fact Town here. Well, then you’re playing against a dark wizard Scum!Fatmo who is playing a really amazing scum game. Is that possible? Yes. But Town!Durga would not think I am scummy for thinking that Fatmo is the more likely town player here.
(2) You skipped more than half the day yesterday. I like, kept asking you to come join the thread and try to solve. And you ended up showing up late and not even really pushing anywhere. It was reactive play, and not inquisitive. And that just doesn’t seem like the right fit for someone who has been eager to try to solve a game at LYLO.

(3) You said Aeschines was scum on Day 1. Then near the end of the day, you swapped your vote to Sjg because, according to you, the Aeschines train wasn’t going to happen. Well, I tried to get the Aeschines train going again at the very end of day when votes were very fluid. You were there. But you stayed on Sjg.

Day 1 was a day when there is no way Scum was going to lynch a partner for cred in this game. Because if you lead a lynch on your partner and then you are not NKed, that’s pretty suspicious. Well...why didn’t you rejoin the Aeschines wagon? I think that was the most readable moment in the game.
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Re: A Very SPECIAL Game Thread of Mafia

Postby Durga » 12 Jul 2019, 07:21

Uhhh. I've listed detailed points on why I'm not likely to be scum. Other than calling Fatmo a dark wizard, can you point to what is townie about him? I don't and haven't really seen what makes Fatmo super townie. Please tell me. Preferably in point form.

On your second point, yeah so what if I skipped it. I'm working at court and can't check my phone the majority of the day. And I caught scum, so whatever it was it worked out. Not to mention I probably posted more than Aes yet you were still on me. No idea what reactive play means or what you're referring to. You keep talking about how I apparently don't want to solve a game at LYLO but from my perspective you've ended both days on town and that is so not indicative of town balki who is actually v smart

On point three, no one was going to lynch Aes so stop this nonsense. I went for who I thought was more likely to flip scum between sjg and Nook. Repeating this point over and over is not gonna help you. Go back and read the room. Kim was hardcore defending him. And it actually irks me that this is a point for you. It irks me more that you have said this point before we knew how Aes would flip

Lastly, if I'm going to vote Aes for cred on d2 why didn't I actually push him hard to get that cred? Come on, you can't think so lowly of my scum game. Your analysis rests on the idea that I should have miraculously known for sure that he was scum on D1 despite Kim shading me hard. It's not genuine.

Also, still waiting to hear what my apparent scum slip is :)
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Re: A Very SPECIAL Game Thread of Mafia

Postby Conq » 12 Jul 2019, 07:23

Durga wrote:
Conq wrote:
Durga wrote:Fatmo, think about it this way. Practically everyone scum read me right? Out of everyone, it was only me and Nanook who scum read Aes more. In fact, Aes, were it not for Nanook CHA, would be very likely to survive. You and Conq both town read him. Neither of you town read me. If I was his teammate and he had INT (which is a weird choice for scum to pick I think which is why I assumed Nook had INT over CHA) activated, and he was more heavily town read then I was, why would I vote him alongside Nook? We would definitely make sure that he sufficiently bussed me to then get credit and make the end game. I would not fight for his lynch like that. Not because I'm trying to tell you what I'd hypothetically do. But because it makes no sense to do what I did as scum.

(1) There is just no way on Earth you are convinced I am sum here.
(2) I think you just slipped.

Can you say what we would expect a Durga/Aeschines team to do during the day yesterday? Like, who should we expect them to vote for and push on?


I can't slip I'm not scum, but feel free to enlighten me about this "slip"

What part of 70 percent is "convinced"? I'm laying my reasons out to you and this is your response? Try harder pls.

Lol what? Literally anyone else??? No way scum busses each other at goddamn LYLO and you know this!! Also if scum actually have day chat and can coordinate and potentially have an extra vote. Like that's actually crazy.

Right. You did slip.

You have been saying over and over that there was “no way scum would bus at LYLO” like it’s some kind of Mafia rule. And then you follow it up with things like “You know this.”

But then you Try to actually spell it out above, you slipped and said this:

In fact, Aes, were it not for Nanook CHA, would be very likely to survive. You and Conq both town read him. Neither of you town read me. If I was his teammate and he had INT (which is a weird choice for scum to pick I think which is why I assumed Nook had INT over CHA) activated, and he was more heavily town read then I was, why would I vote him alongside Nook? We would definitely make sure that he sufficiently bussed me to then get credit and make the end game. I would not fight for his lynch like that. Not because I'm trying to tell you what I'd hypothetically do. But because it makes no sense to do what I did as scum.


Like, that’s exactly right. Your only option was to bus. And you said scum would never bus there. But when you tried to say what you would actually do given the votes on the board, you explained that your only move was to try to set up Aeschines for the end game.

Well that’s exactly what you tried to do: set up Aeschines for the end game. You voted Aeschines. Aeschines votes you. And you guys thought Durga would flip and Aeschines would win at LYLO, probably by getting Fatmo or me to lynch Nook. But Nook’s power screwed that up, and so Aeschines flipped and you go to the end game, and you have no Nook to mislynch because he cleared himself with his power.
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Re: A Very SPECIAL Game Thread of Mafia

Postby Conq » 12 Jul 2019, 07:36

Durga wrote:Uhhh. I've listed detailed points on why I'm not likely to be scum. Other than calling Fatmo a dark wizard, can you point to what is townie about him? I don't and haven't really seen what makes Fatmo super townie. Please tell me. Preferably in point form.

I think Fatmo is Town for stream of conscious equivocating that is hard to fake, breadth of focus, and demonstrated lack of certainty about the game state.

As I say that, let me add to why I feel like a lot of what you say is unnatural. You have seemed sure about the game state you are trying to push almost every time. I don’t get groping around in the dark from you. I get that a lot from Fatmo.

All that said. The Fatmo stuff is not impossible to fake. It’s just hard to fake. I.e., Town or Dark Wizard.

Durga wrote:On your second point, yeah so what if I skipped it. I'm working at court and can't check my phone the majority of the day. And I caught scum, so whatever it was it worked out.

Okay, it’s possible you skipped it because you’re just busy. Could be. But you asked me why I suspect that you’re scum. I just expect that Town!Durga would have been more eager.

Durga wrote:On point three, no one was going to lynch Aes so stop this nonsense.

I need to re-read it, it’s been a while. So I’ll address this again after a re-read.

Durga wrote:Lastly, if I'm going to vote Aes for cred on d2 why didn't I actually push him hard to get that cred? Come on, you can't think so lowly of my scum game. Your analysis rests on the idea that I should have miraculously known for sure that he was scum on D1 despite Kim shading me hard. It's not genuine.

I’m not sure I follow you. I mean, you didn’t really push anyone hard on D2. You skipped most of the phase, and then you just kind of declared that Nook was town and Aeschines was scum, as far as I remember. And...my idea does not rest on you “miraculously knowing for sure that Aeschines was scum,” it rests on you obviously knowing he was scum because it said so in your role PM.
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Re: A Very SPECIAL Game Thread of Mafia

Postby Conq » 12 Jul 2019, 07:50

I am going to re-read the game given the four flips that we've seen and see what makes more sense.

The issues that concern me the most about you are (1) voting behavior on Day 1, and (2) lack if interest and direction Day 2. But, if I'm being completely honest, the biggest reason I have suspected you yesterday and today is process of elimination. So I guess the thing I'm most interested from you would be a plausible case on Fatmo.

But if you think your best bet is to mislynch me for the win, then carry on.
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Re: A Very SPECIAL Game Thread of Mafia

Postby Durga » 12 Jul 2019, 13:58

I'm gonna be busy for a bit but you know what a slip is right? My only option wasn't to bus, if we were gonna do what you thought was inevitable then yeah it'd be set up so he'd get major cred for bussing me. But a) it wasn't inevitable b) in the event it was inevitable, it wouldn't have been played like that

Idk why you're being misleading. You know as well as I do that d2 was not a day where the only option is to bus. Nothing was set in stone.

Anyway more later need to run. I don't know why I'd bother trying to convince you Fatmo is scum when I think you're more likely to be scum?

Fatmo, be wary that both scum members have buddied you hard. Ok?
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Re: A Very SPECIAL Game Thread of Mafia

Postby Conq » 12 Jul 2019, 18:31

Fatmo wrote:
Conq wrote:This is a super scum-sided set-up, I think. We have no investigative roles and I don’t think we have any way to make a clear unless somebody avoids a Night Kill with the Agility power.

Well we have the Perception thing. That has a chance to determine a single ability of a random player. But yea, no alignment cop.

Actually, I had a question regarding if someone decided they wanted to choose either Intelligence or Charisma. Both influence votes. But I was thinking that perhaps someone choosing charisma might be more indicative of scum than choosing intelligence? Because while intelligence gives you a double vote, charisma kind of takes away choice from someone else. I don't know why, but that feels more wrong to me, since mathematically, the person you take a vote away from is more likely to be town than scum. Can anyone think of a reason town would choose charisma over intelligence if they want their vote to count for more? Maybe if you feel so confident in your ability to make reads that you feel that having a chance to control another random person's vote is likely to lead to a better overall vote? Like, did anyone think in great detail about how they would want to use abilities as town and think of a reason that charisma gives a higher chance of having a town positive effect than intelligence? If so, can you explain it?

Hmmm...okay, trying to have an open mind as I do my re-read. I'm just going to post stuff that I find interesting in retrospect. This Fatmo post qualifies. If we assume that Aeschines actually had intelligence, which seems likely, then a Fatmo/Aeschine team might be inclined to get a sentiment like this into the thread.
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Re: A Very SPECIAL Game Thread of Mafia

Postby Conq » 12 Jul 2019, 18:39

Aeschines wrote:I definitely agree with the dogpile strategy. I think it's the best way to neutralize the possibility of CHA/INT scum. So, Conq you earn some town points from me for pushing for it.

Re: Conq v. SJG... what do people think? I'm not sure how I feel about Conq in this. But I'm not inclined to vote Conq. I think his targetting of SJG feels reasonably genuine and SJG has 1) roleclaimed a scummy role and 2) been a little strange with his feelings about Durga. I believe Conq has a genuine basis for his suspicion (though I'm not willing to say I'm confident about his motivations on D1). This line of reasoning probably takes Conq out of my voting roster for D1 (that and his mechanical push).

As Kim mentioned earlier, my preference on D1 is to rule out people, rather than calling people out. My vibes from Nook are that he is his normal pugnacious self (and I appreciate that he is disagreeing with Conq on SJG's behalf - it would be easy to line up on SJG because of his "error"). Not taking an easy line of attack gives me some town vibes from Nook.

I also super don't understand this take:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:Who wants to bite on a spicy two out of Durga/Aes/fatmo take?

Like I'm genuinely not sure of what Nook's feelings about me (didn't he like me earlier?) are or why he would have any vibes about Fatmo or Durga based on their absence so far. But I think it's odd enough that I don't think it makes sense as a scumploy. My best guess is Nook was seeking reaction takes from the three of us to get us more involved. I think I land on that take being NAI.

Kim, Durga , Fatmo - I have not enough on to have any feelings. I like that Kim seems to like me, but that's the most classic trick in the scum book - so I don't want to give her town points just for being nice - though I do appreciate it! So, I can't rule out any of them, which makes me pretty useless.

I do think that SJG is suspicious. I think that there is a valid reason to be concerned that SJG is trying to give himself a pass on taking endurance. If he believes most town took perception (which is a reasonable assumption, I think), then he would need to give himself some coverage. I also see a decent oppositional argument to that though which is, if he is scum - why take the risk when he didn't have to?

Ugh. I'm not super useful here yet, but I'll be online now and again to do my best.

Current feelings/TLDR:
Nook/Conq off my voting list today.
Kim/Durga/Fatmo - total neutrality (Kim because of a push & pull)
SJG - I can see valid arguments against him and valid ones for him. If I absolutely had to cast a vote right now, it would be for SJG but I wouldn't be happy about it.

I'd like to see Durga and Fatmo weigh in (to be clear this is just a vote to prompt their take).

Here is Aeschines's first post summarizing his view on alignments. He follows me in shading Sjg, and he townreads me for my case on Sjg. I guess you could read that either way, but I think that would be a really unusual move were Aeschines my partner.

He asks for input from Fatmo and Durga, and votes Fatmo as a "prompt." Hard to draw much from that.
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Re: A Very SPECIAL Game Thread of Mafia

Postby Conq » 12 Jul 2019, 18:45

Fatmo wrote:I agree with Kim and whoever else that Aes looks decent or better than decent. I think Nook and Sjg at least have also mentioned that. I've been trying lately to be more conscious of the fact that some players just play differently or have different logic. And it's become obvious that Aes is one of those players for me. I like that he's conscious of this difference as well, as Kim has pointed out. Him trying to talk about mechanics when he doesn't see that many other things to talk about also falls right in line with what I've seen him do before. And his aversion to "feels" reads. So him trying to discuss mechanics the way he has looks kosher to me. I also like to discuss mechanics in general on D1, but for me, I tend to do it because I might not have a particularly strong feeling about how to use or talk about or not use or talk about mechanics things. And I want to get feelings from others and see if there's anything that people disagree on and read into those disagreements. Or if I actually have a strong opinion, I like to get it out there. No only does that help me get a better feeling about what makes sense, but it also gives me a chance to perhaps get some gut reads of folks early on in the way they make their points and react to others.

So Kim, what did you think of this response by Aes to you? viewtopic.php?f=306&t=59924&start=10#p981554. I don't think you ever actually made note of it, even though I got the impression that response was aimed at you. I think this makes pretty good sense from Aes when I think of the two games I've followed most closely he was a part of.

Here is a pretty strong defense of Aeschines by Fatmo. Usually, I would take this to mean Fatmo is likely town. I just don't see this kind of hard defense of a partner early in a game. It's like the last thing that scum want to convey. But...it is possible that in a small game that changes a bit, where you really want to avoid your partner dying. On net though, because Kim had already town read Aeschines and he was in no trouble, I think this looks pretty towny from Fatmo. I wouldn't expect him to go out of his way to townread a partner when there was no pressure at all on him.
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