Time for a Rules Change

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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 30 Mar 2018, 18:41

Machiara wrote:There's a difference between technical skill and skill with language. Skill with language is a component of this game. Technical skill is not.


I will admit there is something to this distinction, though I would argue that images are a part of language (particularly in online discourse). Either way, however, the technical skill required to use images in your conversations is nowhere as high as one might think.

You already have to have some technical skill to use a web browser and interact with the game interface. Images that tell the truth are easy to share and use almost the same technical skillset.

And for images that tell lies? While using photoshop (or similar) and editing images directly are admittedly difficult technical skills, you don't need to actually edit images (beyond a simple crop tool) to lie with them. It just takes a little creative thinking.

Taking cropped snapshots of old conversations, or conversations from other games, or maps from one of the site's thousands of archived games... these aren't difficult to do from a technical standpoint. There's very little technical skill involved. You just have to be devious and creative.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby Machiara » 30 Mar 2018, 19:13

So now I have to go back and search previous games for conversations and situations similar to the one I'm in now. That sounds incredibly fun and creative. :P

I just can't understand why you're so incredibly on about this NPI10D. It's an idea that would add so much time to an already time-intensive game and would sap a lot of the fun out of it.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby condude1 » 30 Mar 2018, 19:37

NoPunIn10Did wrote:
condude1 wrote:
NoPunIn10Did wrote:Then maybe the rule shouldn't be "you can't share screenshots" but rather "you can't ask for them."


A really pathetic rule to put in place. Gag orders are a terrible proposition at the best of times (I've railed against them countless times in the mafia forums). I can't think of anything else I can't write in a message (unless I know the person on the other end, but that's a different can of worms). Maybe that's a tip off that allowing screenshots is a terrible idea?


The ban against screenshots is also a gag order.


Not in the way I mean gag order. A gag order is when you say "Don't talk about X subject". No screenshots, no porn etc. are saying that you can't post images of certain kinds and very discreet categories. The rule you propose would fail miserably (Like Dipsy said "If only I were allowed to ask you for a PM, it would make me trust you more").

On top of that, secret ballot games would be ruined for people who couldn't forge pictures perfectly. If the two other people share screenies of their board with the draw accepted, and I say "I don't share screenies, sorry!", it's pretty obvious who's lying.

Forging images is not part of the game of diplomacy, it never has been. It's like my example of bringing chess in for bounces. It's an irrelevant skill that you want brought in because you're good at it. It adds very little to the game and creates a huge hassle and timesuck for most current players in the best case scenario.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 30 Mar 2018, 19:42

Machiara wrote:So now I have to go back and search previous games for conversations and situations similar to the one I'm in now. That sounds incredibly fun and creative. :P

I just can't understand why you're so incredibly on about this NPI10D. It's an idea that would add so much time to an already time-intensive game and would sap a lot of the fun out of it.


It actually doesn't come up all that often. My point is that banning it is simply unnecessary.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 30 Mar 2018, 19:51

condude1 wrote:Forging images is not part of the game of diplomacy, it never has been. It's like my example of bringing chess in for bounces. It's an irrelevant skill that you want brought in because you're good at it. It adds very little to the game and creates a huge hassle and timesuck for most current players in the best case scenario.


  1. Forging messages is absolutely part of diplomacy; see my earlier post about the Zimmerman Telegram. The fact that we're talking about images of messages doesn't change that.
  2. The chess comparison is absurd because it changes the rules of the game. What we're talking about here is changing the house rules for communication on this particular site.
  3. I actually don't plan to actually use this skill myself. As a practice, I don't share screenshots. I think it's in poor taste, but I don't think it ought to be forbidden.
  4. It's only a timesuck if you let it be that way. The fear that suddenly screenshots become a mandatory part of communication is horribly overblown.

You're making the assumption that simply making them legal will make them more-or-less mandatory. That's not how things work. In actuality, they don't really change the game that much, and banning them is simply unnecessary.

There are potential downsides to allowing them in non-anonymous games that are unrelated to the discussion that we've been having here, but for "Regular" games, the rule should be relaxed. They really aren't a big deal, and they're not a game-changer, but forbidding it for people that want to use them to communicate or to back up their messages with evidence is silly.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 30 Mar 2018, 20:04

condude1 wrote:On top of that, secret ballot games would be ruined for people who couldn't forge pictures perfectly. If the two other people share screenies of their board with the draw accepted, and I say "I don't share screenies, sorry!", it's pretty obvious who's lying.


I would be perfectly willing to accept that this remain a limitation. There is no easy way to fake a draw vote. The same restriction could be in place for the orders text (though orders diagrams should be allowed), since whether or not your orders are "finalized" is difficult to fake too.

It's screenshots of interpersonal messages, portions of the map, and images in general that I'd like to see some relaxing around.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby asudevil » 30 Mar 2018, 20:44

NoPunIn10Did wrote:
condude1 wrote:On top of that, secret ballot games would be ruined for people who couldn't forge pictures perfectly. If the two other people share screenies of their board with the draw accepted, and I say "I don't share screenies, sorry!", it's pretty obvious who's lying.


I would be perfectly willing to accept that this remain a limitation. There is no easy way to fake a draw vote. The same restriction could be in place for the orders text (though orders diagrams should be allowed), since whether or not your orders are "finalized" is difficult to fake too.

It's screenshots of interpersonal messages, portions of the map, and images in general that I'd like to see some relaxing around.


Why would someone be ok with a screenshot of a PORTION of the map...which is easily faked...when they can just say "we want the full one"

But if it isn't that big of a deal because its not used that often...then similarly it shouldn't be a big deal to keep it "illegal" since its not used that often.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby The SHIV » 30 Mar 2018, 21:35

Shouldn't sharing a map in a fog game be considered cheating? I think so....

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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby condude1 » 30 Mar 2018, 21:46

NoPunIn10Did wrote:
condude1 wrote:Forging images is not part of the game of diplomacy, it never has been. It's like my example of bringing chess in for bounces. It's an irrelevant skill that you want brought in because you're good at it. It adds very little to the game and creates a huge hassle and timesuck for most current players in the best case scenario.


  1. Forging messages is absolutely part of diplomacy; see my earlier post about the Zimmerman Telegram. The fact that we're talking about images of messages doesn't change that.
  2. The chess comparison is absurd because it changes the rules of the game. What we're talking about here is changing the house rules for communication on this particular site.
  3. I actually don't plan to actually use this skill myself. As a practice, I don't share screenshots. I think it's in poor taste, but I don't think it ought to be forbidden.
  4. It's only a timesuck if you let it be that way. The fear that suddenly screenshots become a mandatory part of communication is horribly overblown.

You're making the assumption that simply making them legal will make them more-or-less mandatory. That's not how things work. In actuality, they don't really change the game that much, and banning them is simply unnecessary.

There are potential downsides to allowing them in non-anonymous games that are unrelated to the discussion that we've been having here, but for "Regular" games, the rule should be relaxed. They really aren't a big deal, and they're not a game-changer, but forbidding it for people that want to use them to communicate or to back up their messages with evidence is silly.


1. That's a non sequitur. Forging messages is part of diplomacy, therefore forging images is too? Is forging tax returns part of the game too, since forgery's part of the game, right?
2. So the chess comparison is absurd because it changes the rules of the game, whereas screenshotting is perfectly acceptable because it changes the rules that we play the game by? That's... a very slim difference.
3. You think it's in poor taste, and you think it won't be used very often, yet you think that's enough to justify forcing most of the players on the site to learn how to edit images. You've said it yourself: There's a very marginal benefit. The cost/benefit analysis just doesn't add up.
4. So your only defense of legalizing screenshots is that they won't be used very often. I rest my case.

See 4. for the rest. You've agreed there are some fairly big flaws (secret ballot), and that there's limited upside. Why are we still talking?
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby asudevil » 30 Mar 2018, 23:36

The SHIV wrote:Shouldn't sharing a map in a fog game be considered cheating? I think so....

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That's what they want to change...because they can be manipulated...
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