2018 Live Mafia

Does what it says on the tin.

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Re: 2018 Live Mafia

Postby condude1 » 05 Mar 2018, 05:27

In all fairness, I was one of his biggest defenders when he was here, so there's a decent chance my view is slightly biased.
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Re: 2018 Live Mafia

Postby Nanook » 05 Mar 2018, 05:31

kimbyrle wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:
condude1 wrote:I'd say shirt is worse from an abrasiveness standpoint. The issue is that Crunkus would sometimes flood the thread. And I mean pages upon pages. And a lot of it would be abrasive.

I'm just saying that he's not as bad as some players make out, and that he deserves a better legacy than "That jerk".

My impression of him is formed entirely from the debates section, his conflicts with site mods, and a diplomacy game played with him, not from mafia. He was mostly abrasive and a dick in most of those interactions--not always, and to his credit he was usually right, it was just the way he went about being right that made me not want to interact with him.

I haven't heard much, but when I asked ZZ about him, one example he brought up was Crunkus quoting an entire post and simply replying with "Vomit." That's too abrasive for me.

That part I would've actually been fine with--it's when he spends 5 paragraphs nitpicking you using the word "probably," or "likely," or "very," and why that's unacceptable, or when he tells you that you didn't mean what you said and he's dead wrong but insists that he's right anyways. Again, I never played mafia with him, but I've had interactions with him elsewhere that were incredibly frustrating to be a part of.

I don't mean to be crapping on him by any means...like I said, he was right a lot...and his stickies here helped me figure out what I was doing when I started playing...it's just the way he went about being right that rubbed me the wrong way.
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Re: 2018 Live Mafia

Postby sinnybee » 05 Mar 2018, 05:40

Crunkus was very intelligent, he was a great mafia GM in a game I played (including his kind inclusion of and patience toward relative forum mafia newbies like me in the game... though of course he had a lot of invitationals too), and he had a lot of thoughtful contribution on non-mafia forums, proven by his ending up as 5th place in karma count (though he did have a lot of posts too). I think he did a little bit of work for the Classicists with me (and he did more than I did) after raphtown left.
One time when there was a bit of a fight, I sided slightly to Crunk, even though I was closer to global mods and admins than to him. I probably didn't know the whole story and I remember being told to not side with him, and I remember Crunkus himself refusing my attempt to give him the benefit of the doubt or to side with him... anyway, that was a long time ago.
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Re: 2018 Live Mafia

Postby Keirador » 05 Mar 2018, 08:46

Did not expect to read a Live Game thread and find a trial in absentia of Crunkus. It's not in good taste, but it's already happening, so I feel compelled to testify.

I think most here know I've been around here for a good bit. I've watched this community in various shapes of growth, development, decline and renaissance for eight years. I think it no exaggeration to claim that this community is what it is because of Crunkus. If you like it here or think this place is special, be aware that it would not exist without the effort put in and standards promoted by Crunkus. Not "players like Crunkus," Crunkus. I don't mean to say everybody else is rubbish, just that without the consistent determination that Crunkus applied to improving this community, year in and year out for almost a decade, it wouldn't exist.

The most unfair bullshit Crunkus had to put up with was an unending torrent of accusations that he was a bully or a troll who only cared about being right, only cared about himself, and didn't respect other people. To this I would offer two, related, counter-arguments. First, scan through the pages of game threads and see just how many of them were GMed by Crunkus. Second, click on any one of them and ISO the GM posts. I could recommend a few, Night Vale being my obvious personal favorite, but I feel fairly comfortable saying "any one of them." We had no better GM than Crunkus. Innovative game design, careful and conscientious execution, and dramatic narrative flair were things Crunkus routinely brought to the forum, and he put in a staggering amount of effort in order to create fun and enjoyable games for other people. This work was "appreciated," but not so much so that when he took some time off from GMing to actually play a game, he wasn't constantly accused of acting selfishly and in bad faith.

Seriously, if you take nothing else out of this post, ISO Crunkus' GMing/narration of Night Vale, and come back here and tell me he's an abrasive jerk. Or a selfish troll. Or anything other than a goddamned delight and a national treasure. It's your loss you never got to play a Crunkus game.

Of course, it was never his GMing that people hated him for, that gift was always accepted, usually with a modicum of courtesy. That just never carried over into influencing how much people despised him as a player. People hated Crunkus for acting like he was sooooo smart, without ever really stopping to ask if he wasn't acting like the smartest person in the room, he simply was the smartest person in the room. He suffered plenty of petty abuse on that score. But when I got into trouble with Crunkus, it was because he was holding me to very high standards. He held everybody, including himself, to very high standards. That's why this community has high standards. Crunkus wasn't a jerk, he was an optimist. He was convinced people could get and be better with enough time, patience, and honesty about past mistakes. Usually, Crunkus was right: he was right to point out where I'd failed because I really could have done better, and stubbornness or laziness or pique or high dudgeon were preventing me from doing better. He didn't just act like he was right, he was right. Surely that counts, when assessing somebody's alleged arrogance? Surely it counts that his "walls of text" that people found so bothersome, his endless pedantic parsing of phrasing and intent that so enraged people, actually had excellent rates of catching scum?

Now to be clear, I'm sure the man himself would disavow most of my praise, and indeed refer to some of it as misrepresentative to the point of being offensive, and, despite my intent, throwing up yet more barriers to his being understood. It's true, even as a self-described fan we ultimately never saw eye to eye. The game finally came when Crunkus was annoyed with play from me that he considered sub-par, and even after serious reflection I couldn't agree that he was right and I could have done better. We did discuss this privately, as Crunkus is ALWAYS wont to do when he feels there has been a misunderstanding, but he didn't convince me I could actually have done any better, and I couldn't convince him to accept lower standards. I'm saddened by his departure, but I also wonder if it wasn't inevitable that somebody who always pushed for the highest standards wouldn't eventually be disappointed. That relentlessly aspirational personality trait that so many people found intolerable was the self-same thing that elevated this community.

Apologies, if you're reading, to Crunkus, as I'm sure I got everything quite wrong. ;)
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Re: 2018 Live Mafia

Postby Nanook » 05 Mar 2018, 09:01

I apologize if I came across as attacking Crunkus. Was not my intent. Also note that I'm basing my comments off of some deeply unpleasant interactions with him both directly and as a third party outside of the mafia forum. I have a lot of respect for him in many regards, but he crossed a few lines that are better left uncrossed, and then refused to either adjust his stance or accept that someone else might not share it. Again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with mafia--I have a tremendous amount of respect for his contributions to the mafia forum, and I'm sure it would be a much worse place without his building it into what it is today. I also have a lot of respect for his intelligence--it was annoying for me personally as I'm often not very precise or exact in my language, but the precision with which he could analyze the English language was kind of amazing. At the same time, he could be a bully in other areas sometimes. Both things can be true--he can be a dedicated and amazing mafia GM, a very good player that has high standards both for himself and for others, an intensely smart person who probably was the smartest person in most of the rooms he was in...and at the same time be someone that bullied other people at times, crossed lines that are better left uncrossed, and threw hissy fits at misunderstandings. Both things can be true, and this case, both things are true.

I do apologize if my glib comment came across as an attack on him though--attacking him in absentia would be kind of a dick thing to do. It was meant solely as a glib, off the cuff comment, and wasn't well-considered enough, and for that I will apologize. My intent was certainly not to attack him or his contributions to mafia or even the way he played mafia. I just have had some deeply unpleasant interactions with him that make it so that I prefer to respect him from a distance rather than deal with him up close.
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Re: 2018 Live Mafia

Postby shadowface » 05 Mar 2018, 09:22

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
Parabellum wrote:We'd finally get to experience your famous New England accent/syntax/mannerisms. Until now, I've had to imagine you as M*A*S*H's Winchester (RIP).

The accent comes and goes, but the light to medium condescension is there for life :lol:

:lol:

kimbyrle wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:
condude1 wrote:
I ran that as the first game I ever GMed!

I am really glad I never had to play with Crunkus.

I've heard stories that make me echo this sentiment.

I did not always see I to eye with Crunkus at all, but he's probably the best player I've ever encountered, and he definitely held me to a higher standard and encourage my development as a player. Also an excellent GM. Him leaving seemed a long time in the coming based on communication difficulties and the fact that his play style was so distinct.

Anyways, I don't see much point in this conversation, and it's not cool to talk about someone who's not there.
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Re: 2018 Live Mafia

Postby Nanook » 05 Mar 2018, 09:29

shadow wrote:I did not always see I to eye with Crunkus at all, but he's probably the best player I've ever encountered, and he definitely held me to a higher standard and encourage my development as a player. Also an excellent GM. Him leaving seemed a long time in the coming based on communication difficulties and the fact that his play style was so distinct.

Anyways, I don't see much point in this conversation, and it's not cool to talk about someone who's not there.

*shrugs* You haven't seen him say some of the things I've seen him say. However, agreed that since he's not here to talk for himself and my issues with him have exactly nothing to do with mafia, this is better off dropped in this thread.
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Re: 2018 Live Mafia

Postby shadowface » 05 Mar 2018, 09:35

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
shadow wrote:I did not always see I to eye with Crunkus at all, but he's probably the best player I've ever encountered, and he definitely held me to a higher standard and encourage my development as a player. Also an excellent GM. Him leaving seemed a long time in the coming based on communication difficulties and the fact that his play style was so distinct.

Anyways, I don't see much point in this conversation, and it's not cool to talk about someone who's not there.

*shrugs* You haven't seen him say some of the things I've seen him say. However, agreed that since he's not here to talk for himself and my issues with him have exactly nothing to do with mafia, this is better off dropped in this thread.

I'm not going to go dig up crap on Crunkus right now. It's not cool. But I will tell you, especially since I played with him as the site's "newbie young'un (his words)", I did not always agree with him and on more than one occasion was hugely offended by him. Doesn't mean he was wrong.
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Re: 2018 Live Mafia

Postby shadowface » 05 Mar 2018, 09:38

UpsideDownChuck wrote:We should play with video chat so I can see what you goobers look like and how it matches my perception.

Hmm... I'd be down to do this, I guess, but honestly I would prefer voice if we want to play super-live like that. Video chats are kind of annoying IMO, not only because my laptop freaks out when I try, but because then you have to vaguely look at people. With a large group that's kind of weird, I feel.

Voice I think would be fun, though, if we wanted to give that a try, but still harder to keep track of than text-based if we were playing with a larger group. Maybe if we wanted to do that we could use the instant messager in Discord to keep track of votes, do scumchat, and stuff like that, but do the day phases through voice?
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Re: 2018 Live Mafia

Postby Nanook » 05 Mar 2018, 09:40

shadowface wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:
shadow wrote:I did not always see I to eye with Crunkus at all, but he's probably the best player I've ever encountered, and he definitely held me to a higher standard and encourage my development as a player. Also an excellent GM. Him leaving seemed a long time in the coming based on communication difficulties and the fact that his play style was so distinct.

Anyways, I don't see much point in this conversation, and it's not cool to talk about someone who's not there.

*shrugs* You haven't seen him say some of the things I've seen him say. However, agreed that since he's not here to talk for himself and my issues with him have exactly nothing to do with mafia, this is better off dropped in this thread.

I'm not going to go dig up crap on Crunkus right now. It's not cool. But I will tell you, especially since I played with him as the site's "newbie young'un (his words)", I did not always agree with him and on more than one occasion was hugely offended by him. Doesn't mean he was wrong.

Again...my issues with him have nothing to do with mafia. They don't have to do with his often outwardly prickly demeanor in general, or whether he was right or wrong most of the time. They have to do with a very specific situation and how he chose to conduct himself in it and what he chose to say. I'm not going to get into it more than that, so let's just say that we've had very different experiences with Crunkus, that neither of our experiences invalidates the other, and leave it at that.
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