Mafia CLVI: Charity Mafia: -- Pure of Heart Win!

[Zoomzip]

CHECKPOINT D1Q3:

justy (2): condude1, Thyrfing
Telleo (1): Happymeal
Thyrfing (2): Harb, Telleo
condude1 (2): justy, sjg11

Fuddin has been poked by the GM

[Telleo]

So I'm here, reading and catching up. I have to go to work soon so I won't be caught up by the time I have to leave, but I'll get some more done late tonight, and I'll be around all day tomorrow. I'm prioritizing catching up in thread over re-reading Thryfing, but I'll get to that ASAP.

[Thyrfing]

Unvote, this level of confidence from sjg about his assumptions is not out of character.

And you didn't know it was out of character when you placed the vote?
What changed that made you reconsider the vote?

[Thyrfing]

@Thyrfing: You had good point about scum suggesting town positive plans they know a walkaround for. But I still think good plan should award town points. Not oodles of them, but some at least. I don't think there are that many ways to gain oodles of town points D1 and reads should be based on what little we have.

Even if there's no workaround, scum suggest good plans all the time for town cred.

[Thyrfing]

I meant justy, yes, thanks for the correction
More than the logic behind his vote, it was its timing, the fact that he came exactly after Tello pointed the ratio thing out and voted for you on his first post. Rushy vote could be coming from scum eager to place an early vote... we all know how hard it can become to set on a vote later on the day...

I'm wondering, but what else do you think supports this? As in, what other of Justy's actions do you think assist in ascertaining his alignment? I know for a fact that if Justy were to try to do the whole "get aggressive" in a match, this would be the way he would execute it, regardless of alignment.

I've found myself as scum usually caught in having to place a vote day 3 with a lot of pressure and having to take a super fake stance because you know all cases are bullshit. A good way to avoid this as scum is make an early case where weak cases are more permitted and sit on that (and change if the tides turn)... but you already are on a vote.

[Thyrfing]

I expected to get exactly what I asked for. Why do you find my question to be a dangerous breach of security, but asking about the motivations behind it isn't?

Yes, I do. Asking the town questions about their roles with no objective other than knowing information about their roles (that's what you just stated you expected to get) is scummy as hell. As in information fishing.
Questioning scummy behaviour is my job as a townie.

Still interested in that Telleo

Telleo
Looks like this needs to be red for you to pay attention to it.

I'm surprised why this hasn't fired any alarms.
Fishing information about roles from the town can only help scum.

[sjg11]

Hi guys, busy day, will start posting in a couple of hours for end of day.

[Telleo]

Justy, the Sjg vote was a wagon vote on a weak point that was retracted as soon as the vote started losing steam and a solid defense begins for Sjg from myself and others.

Again, let's talk about this whole "wagon vote" thing. Was the issue one you can't see town justy believing was a scumtell? I find that hard to believe. If you think town justy might have believed it was a scumtell, what exactly is he supposed to add to that other than what he did? Explain why "wagon vote" is anything more than mudslinging here.

If the point is weak, why is Telleo exempt from your criticism? Because it's a perceived slip and people attach a vote to "Gotcha!" moments. Okay. But presumably town justy can know those feels. Why is arriving at the point INDEPENDENTLY important? Keir also gets some credit here from you. Okay, but absent people who aren't caught up don't we just have one person who can independently arrive at this conclusion? That means 6 of 7 townies aren't allowed to find this point valid because someone already did.

Additionally, if it's a weak point, why is justy LEAVING a weak case more indicative than Telleo sticking with it? Wouldn't you expect town justy to dump a weak point relatively quickly?

I second most of this. I understand the gut reaction to dislike justy's vote, because I felt it too. That said, I don't think there's actually any substance to a case here. This doesn't seem like something justy does differently if he's town vs if he's scum. Harb's points RE: me getting a pass on this questioning are also valid.

I'm not sure I bite on that last line though. Personally, I'd expect a scum to try to bail out earlier than a town, because the town has a vested interest in pursuing a lead to make sure it goes nowhere, while a scum has an interest in not being caught making unsupportable arguments.

I'm curious about what Telleo is currently thinking (I assume I'll find out when I read further. I'm not sure if she wash pushing back against my vote because of it's timing or because she didn't think I had strong enough reasons. If it's latter, I'm surprised she hasn't move her own vote.

Thyrfing seems to have issue with you [SJG] handling Condude and him differenlty. IIRC Telleo said something about this as well. I have to look back to it later (or see if it's further discussed in thread when I read on) to comment it.

I wasn't pushing back against your vote. I was investigating your reasons for it, because I wanted to see if you were hopping on my bandwagon or legitimately trying to make a case. Satisfied, I stopped "pushing."

Also, I had issues with Sjg handling Condude and Thryfing differently. Thyrfing was the one who said something about this as well. Important distinction, because I was the one doing the questioning, and Thryfing was the one saying "Yeah, that's weird."

Hrmph, I thought I was defending Sjg harder than that. Still, I got the feeling from the thread no one was joining the lynch any more. I'll reread after lunch to see if that was a valid interpretation.

I don't really recall you defending Sjg on this point. Would you be so good as to link me to a post or two?

Thyrfing, what value do you see in "not planning" that isn't fulfilled by the two groups plan? What value do you see in a cig remaining secret?

Probably been answered by now, but just in case it isn't I'm interested in this too.

2) Condude1 reminds me more of scum smelling blood than town trying to resolve my alignment. He is trying to sell his vote for Harb and others, not know why I did what I did.

This same sentiment goes for Thyrfing. I doubt they're both scum however because they're on same target so early. But condude has showed more of his reasoning, which I find both bad and contradicting to his own early D1 play (re True Love early vote).

So why is Condude pushing an argument more scum indicative that Thryfing, who's scumreading you but not engaging to make the case?

As for justy... I have serious issues with his comments about my plan being town indicative. I feel like justy is smart enough to know that people proposing pro-town ideas is not a town indicative statement at all.

Asking as someone who has not played with justy before - is this true? It's certainly a mistake a lot of new town players make. Has justy shown that he understands this point in previous play?

I expected to get exactly what I asked for. Why do you find my question to be a dangerous breach of security, but asking about the motivations behind it isn't?

Yes, I do. Asking the town questions about their roles with no objective other than knowing information about their roles (that's what you just stated you expected to get) is scummy as hell. As in information fishing.
Questioning scummy behaviour is my job as a townie.

Still interested in that Telleo

Then you'll love reading my response here. Meanwhile I still have mail to you here.

Also: Thyrfing

This makes me happy.



Also, I'm liking the questioning going on in this post, and will be eagerly awaiting Thryfing's response.

I have no idea where you get the idea that Harb is any kind of scumread from me. What gave you that impression?

Also, for the record, just because I scumread someone doesn't mean the plan they propose is bad- see Sjg's point that as scum, he'd propose town-positive plans because it's what he'd do as town.

Actually, I sort of did the same thing when I saw your organization in a PPE. It looks like a list of your reads, not who people are supposed to target. I couldn't figure out how you suddenly had scumreads on condude, me, fuddin, and justy.

Ok, I see how you might think that at first. But does Thryfing really believe that I have a townread suddenly on Sjg? And given the context of that post, he doesn't figure out my meaning?

I mean, not really a point, I guess, cause I can see where the confusion comes from. Just doesn't seem like a well thought out post.


---

I'm caught up through page 27, but I have to go to work now. If I have free time, I'll try to start in on Page 28, but I likely won't make much headway before about 11 tonight.

[Telleo]

Yes, I do. Asking the town questions about their roles with no objective other than knowing information about their roles (that's what you just stated you expected to get) is scummy as hell. As in information fishing.
Questioning scummy behaviour is my job as a townie.

Still interested in that Telleo

Telleo
Looks like this needs to be red for you to pay attention to it.

I'm surprised why this hasn't fired any alarms.
Fishing information about roles from the town can only help scum.

That's cute. I've answered this, and you've ignored it, and my other messages to you. Keep up please.

[Telleo]

Still interested in that Telleo

Telleo
Looks like this needs to be red for you to pay attention to it.

I'm surprised why this hasn't fired any alarms.
Fishing information about roles from the town can only help scum.

That's cute. I've answered this, and you've ignored it, and my other messages to you. Keep up please.[/quote]

Hopping back on one last time to apologize for the tone in that post. That was a bit more bitchy than I meant it to be. Sorry.