Why Hundred? To Colonial, or not to Colonial?

Posts applicable to the variant selection process circa 2015 and before. Will also contain subforums where approved & elected variants are "workshopped" for specific tweaks during implementation.

Work on Colonial, now that Hundred is done?

Colonial!
19
66%
No, not Colonial.
10
34%
 
Total votes : 29

Re: Why Hundred? To Colonial, or not to Colonial?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 26 Mar 2018, 20:19

Don Juan of Austria wrote:
NoPunIn10Did wrote:
GhostEcho wrote:I'm also with asudevil in thinking that adding centers without adding players doesn't add to the gameplay. That's not to say I'm against Colonial: I'm running the current forum game and I'd do it again, or play myself, whatever the map choices. But my first choice for a new variant would be Heptarchy, and if we're wanting a bigger game, I'm a zealot for War in the Americas. So I voted "No" on this poll.


Maybe I should draw up both maps and let them battle head-to-head.


I had voted yes for Colonial... But had not recollected Heptarchy! :shock: :)


To be clear, I'm probably not doing a map for Heptarchy at the very moment. I'll look into War in the Americas though.
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Re: Why Hundred? To Colonial, or not to Colonial?

Postby asudevil » 26 Mar 2018, 20:46

NoPunIn10Did wrote:
GhostEcho wrote:I'm also with asudevil in thinking that adding centers without adding players doesn't add to the gameplay. That's not to say I'm against Colonial: I'm running the current forum game and I'd do it again, or play myself, whatever the map choices. But my first choice for a new variant would be Heptarchy, and if we're wanting a bigger game, I'm a zealot for War in the Americas. So I voted "No" on this poll.


Maybe I should draw up both maps and let them battle head-to-head.


PSSST....that's 3 maps
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Re: Why Hundred? To Colonial, or not to Colonial?

Postby sinnybee » 26 Mar 2018, 21:22

First of all, YES!
I haven't been very interested in Colonial on this site as a Play-by-Forum Dip (as I haven't been interested in Play-by-Forum Dip in years), but I very much enjoyed playing it a few times as part of the face-to-face tournament of my high school.
WHEN this becomes an official variant on our site, I will probably want to play in and/or be somehow involved in organizing a tournament for it.
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TheCraw wrote:extend the boundaries of the Sea of Japan so it ALSO touches Sakhalin. This gives players 3 access points to attack Sakhalin: Otaru, Sea of Japan and Okhotsk Sea

...that sounded like a good fix, and was in the "official map" submitted for the variant vote

I agree that that's an acceptable fix.
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asudevil wrote:If we are doing a "mega map" I prefer to add the number of players...not just the number of SC

What?
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joe92 wrote:Colonial has been run 6 times on this site. It has resulted in five 4-way draws and one 3-way draw. Is it the best map to bring through if those are the stats for it?

On vDip there has been 62 solos and 97 draws, which I don't think is bad.
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NoPunIn10Did wrote:We'd need to have a conversation about how to handle the ratings for Colonial games, since it's considerably less balanced than any other map currently supported.

I think that Colonial is great as is :). So, if an adjustment is needed to make the game balanced enough for a fair ranking of games, I think that rating handicaps should be used. For example, if the player of China had a rating of 1100 prior to the end of their Colonial game, they will instead be judged as if their rating was 1027 (1100 -73).

On vDip:
Drawn:97 games
2-way draw: 4
3-way draw: 37
4-way draw: 29
5-way draw: 16
6-way draw: 8
7-way draw: 3

Doing the math on that yields that 27% of players are included in a draw when a draw is the outcome of the game. I took that down to 25% (probably should be lower) since playdip rewards more for a solo than 2 2-ways or than 3 3-ways etc. meaning that the draw advantage of a power should be weighted less than the solo advantage of a power. So, I took the vDip results and multiplied the solos by 4 (the inverse of 25% or 1/4) and added the draws which gives:

142 Japan +51.7 +155
133 Britain +42.7 +128
98 Russia +7.7 +23
67 Holland -23.3 -70
66 China -24.3 -73
66 Turkey -24.3 -73
60 France -30.3 -91

for a total of 632 and an average of 90.3. To the right of each power above is the number of how each power result compares to the average. To the right of that is the previous number multiplied by 3.
So, in my previous example, if the player of China loses their game, they won't lose as many points as they normally would have. If instead they solo as China, they will gain more rating points than they would normally have gained.
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Re: Why Hundred? To Colonial, or not to Colonial?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 26 Mar 2018, 21:41

sinnybee wrote:So, if an adjustment is needed to make the game balanced enough for a fair ranking of games, I think that rating handicaps should be used...
So, in my previous example, if the player of China loses their game, they won't lose as many points as they normally would have. If instead they solo as China, they will gain more rating points than they would normally have gained.


That's approximately what I was going to suggest. Alter the Elo system such that the "expected" points for a given player also take into account the statistical performance of that power. Losses in weak positions would then be worth fewer negative points, and they'd yield more positive points in a favorable draw or solo. Vice versa for the strong positions.
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Re: Why Hundred? To Colonial, or not to Colonial?

Postby ColonelApricot » 26 Mar 2018, 22:15

I suggest a slight change of name to "Colonel", then I'd definitely vote for it. :mrgreen:

In terms of adding variants how about completing unfinished work first? ESCALATION has been added to all maps except Versailles, and Versailles badly needs it. There was a discussion a while back of how to overcome the complication of how to deal with the minors, with significant support for making the escalation process work the usual way for the majors, and randomly allocating the minors across the remaining SC's, thus addressing the imbalance issues.

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Re: Why Hundred? To Colonial, or not to Colonial?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 26 Mar 2018, 22:20

ColonelApricot wrote:I suggest a slight change of name to "Colonel", then I'd definitely vote for it. :mrgreen:

In terms of adding variants how about completing unfinished work first? ESCALATION has been added to all maps except Versailles, and Versailles badly needs it. There was a discussion a while back of how to overcome the complication of how to deal with the minors, with significant support for making the escalation process work the usual way for the majors, and randomly allocating the minors across the remaining SC's, thus addressing the imbalance issues.

..CA


What you're describing there is a totally different set of questions. I can't do anything to help with getting Versailles to be Escalation-compatible; that's totally on Dipsy's side.
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Re: Why Hundred? To Colonial, or not to Colonial?

Postby ColonelApricot » 26 Mar 2018, 22:33

Sorry to subvert the topic.

Let me just add that I have seen NoPun's work and it is of the highest order, whatever is selected is certain to be superbly executed.

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Re: Why Hundred? To Colonial, or not to Colonial?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 26 Mar 2018, 22:52

One note:

The Colonial map I eventually produce would be topologically equivalent to the Avalon Hill map (sans adjustments approved here), but I may be using the historical resources available to me to correct certain borders and incorrect naming. Sinkiang (Xinjiang), for instance, is considerably out of place.
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Re: Why Hundred? To Colonial, or not to Colonial?

Postby DQ » 26 Mar 2018, 23:00

NoPunIn10Did wrote:
I'm also looking at the Colonial stats from over on vDiplomacy. They've had quite a few games there, but they don't speak well for Colonial's balance.


Anecdotally, Colonial is badly unbalanced. So much so that in 20+ years I've never played it.

How about Maharajah? That's a good one. I assume the Viking Dark Ages one is already coded up? I used to play a fair bit of variants but .... meh, not a fan
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Re: Why Hundred? To Colonial, or not to Colonial?

Postby Groo » 27 Mar 2018, 01:44

Heptarchy was fun! Pretty balanced map imo. Scottland is not in THAT bad position as some stats would suggest.

Colonial seems a bit weird. I don't know why would anyone choose France on that map, for example. And there's that Sakhalin issue.
edit: I'd vote yes, the more the marrier, but I think I'd rather see Heptarchy first.
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