PDL 2021 Commentary

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Re: PDL 2021 Commentary

Postby DocPaZ » 29 Apr 2021, 02:07

Well well

Last musings were largely correct:

In D1G1 (https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play ... _id=192004) just ended in a F-I-A shared win. Hope an AAR is shortcoming.

In D1G2 (https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play ... _id=192207) continues. There FEG have allied to establish a stalemate line against the ITR alliance. A 6 way draw coming?


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Re: PDL 2021 Commentary

Postby jay65536 » 30 Apr 2021, 20:46

Reading the AAR from the most recent 3way draw in D1, I caught notice of a comment by Charleroi that he thinks the league scoring system might be encouraging "timid" play.

It would be too far afield for me to respond on the AAR, but I disagree with this statement.

We certainly have seen a lot of "timid" play so far in the games that have ended. Other than one successful solo bid and one unsuccessful one that ended in a 5way, every game has seen a "boring" result: either a 2way, or a 3way where the top 2 powers (sometimes all 3) finished exactly equal or close in centers.

That being said, I don't agree with the idea that the scoring system is causing this. There are 2 reasons I think so. First of all, last year in D1 there were no 2ways and also no 3ways until the final round. Every game ended in either a 4way or a solo--and there were FIVE (!) solos. That's a huge number of solos for a tournament with this number of players. And the scoring system was exactly the same. So it might be the different mix of players this year, or it might be random chance--but given the two different sets of results, it can't be that the scoring system is the culprit.

Second of all, I have some degree of experience playing under the Dixiecon system, which is similar to this system in how to "game" it. Dixiecon also sees lots of 3way draws, a rare 4way, and an occasional 2way, with some solos thrown in as well. However, Dixiecon also sees a pattern of early-round games showing what Charleroi might call a "timid" result, followed by the contenders making big moves in the second round--which happens to be the last untimed round, and the last reliable opportunity to put big points on the board. Basically, I'm not convinced that the players are taking "timid" results because of the scoring system. Instead, I think the players might be trying to "blend in" with their scores and their negotiating in the early rounds, to set themselves up to separate themselves from the competition in late rounds. We will see if that turns out to be the case.

I'll also point out that compared to other draw-based systems that could be used, this system tends to encourage bold play, not discourage it. For example, Bravo Papa Alpha had a 15-center 5way. In a different system, the "5way" would mean that his result ends up significantly worse than a 3way. But in this system he scores the same as if he had a 7-center 3way. So it's not that big a penalty for blowing up your center count but then getting stuck with a large draw. (The key word there is "draw-based". Compared to a non-draw-based scoring system, Charleroi is right.) This system is basically one of the most encouraging of bold play of any tournament scoring system that allows the games to still be site-ranked.

(Some of the players have been commenting on my thread asking for feedback on my own system. I'll point out that my system doesn't compare here because it does not conform to site rankings.)
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Re: PDL 2021 Commentary

Postby with_an_h » 01 May 2021, 00:01

In D1G2, a turn just executed where the alliances held. I'm curious to see whether we actually will see a 6-way draw. Big contrast between the two WT games - in this one, looks like ITR were able to band together fast enough to hold the line.
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Re: PDL 2021 Commentary

Postby IvarGizteb » 01 May 2021, 15:43

Can someone direct me to the page that summarizes the scoring system? I've poked around this forum a little bit and can't seem to find it, although I'm sure it's there somewhere.
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Re: PDL 2021 Commentary

Postby Oxmeister » 01 May 2021, 16:57

It's a little bit hidden as a few people have struggled to find it, but it's in the sign-up thread :
https://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=819&t=61512
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Re: PDL 2021 Commentary

Postby Custer » 01 May 2021, 17:26

I like to keep these at the top. So I can find them. Never.

LoL

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Re: PDL 2021 Commentary

Postby Oxmeister » 01 May 2021, 18:26

jay65536 wrote:
Oxmeister wrote:
jay65536 wrote:Are you being facetious? I hate open ballot noDIAS—precisely because it makes it harder to win. But when someone does solo in that setting it seems to me like even more of an accomplishment than soloing a different kind of game.


Apologies, I was being facetious . I've always liked open ballot because it adds a political aspect to the game , but I do see your point about secret ballot making a solo more likely.


It's not open ballot that I dislike per se; it's the combination of open ballot and noDIAS. Open ballot with DIAS I'm totally happy with!

What do you think open ballot adds "politically" that's not there with secret ballot?


Sorry for the slow response to this Jay, I guess they are both have a political aspect, but just a fair bit more so with open ballot. With secret ballot, you don't need to give all that much thought to the votes that will occur later, or when they are proposed, because you can simply vote for them if you want them, and veto them if you don't while blaming somebody else. With open ballot, you will reach a point in the game where you will need to be clear on exactly where (and with whom) you stand on a potentially frequent basis , and you have to take this into account with your diplomacy and strategy, especially if you want to solo. Want to solo? better think of a way to do it before you're caught out with a draw vote, have a good reason for denying earlier draw votes , or a janissary who will veto them for you. Worried somebody else is trying to solo? put the pressure on them with draw votes.

Both systems have a different interest to me, but open ballot is generally my favourite.
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Re: PDL 2021 Commentary

Postby jay65536 » 01 May 2021, 19:23

I guess they are both have a political aspect, but just a fair bit more so with open ballot. With secret ballot, you don't need to give all that much thought to the votes that will occur later, or when they are proposed, because you can simply vote for them if you want them, and veto them if you don't while blaming somebody else. With open ballot, you will reach a point in the game where you will need to be clear on exactly where (and with whom) you stand on a potentially frequent basis , and you have to take this into account with your diplomacy and strategy, especially if you want to solo. Want to solo? better think of a way to do it before you're caught out with a draw vote, have a good reason for denying earlier draw votes , or a janissary who will veto them for you. Worried somebody else is trying to solo? put the pressure on them with draw votes.

Both systems have a different interest to me, but open ballot is generally my favourite.


You seem to be taking for granted that the game is noDIAS.

With open ballot DIAS, even though you are vetoing a draw, it's often easy to manufacture a reason to do so that is something other than "I want to solo." There will usually be some small powers still alive that need to be "cleaned up" or somesuch.

Your point only stands when a draw vote is allowed to be for exactly the result you're pretending you want, AND you have to openly veto it in order to try to win.

From your response, it seems like you and I both agree that open ballot noDIAS makes it much harder to actually win the game; it just sounds like you think this is a good thing. I think it's hard enough to solo without adding the extra layer of your opponents mashing the draw button to force you to give up on your solo chances.
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Re: PDL 2021 Commentary

Postby Pete the Great » 02 May 2021, 00:09

That is one aspect of SuperPastis that is nice vs. the PDL. In Fall 1909 it is what it is. You have either soloed or you haven't. The DIAS also simplifies things as you can veto the proposal on account of loose ends that need to be whittled out. Games that are open ballot non DIAS can paint a target on ones back in certain situations.
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Re: PDL 2021 Commentary

Postby with_an_h » 02 May 2021, 21:04

Looks like Italy managed to convince Germany and England to swap out Turkey as the third nation in their 3-way in D2 G2 (https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play_details.php?game_id=192007). I wonder how much longer this will go and whether it will be a slow grind or if there will be a surprise.

D1 G2 remains stalemated and someone has proposed a 6-way draw. I've never seen that done before. I wonder what diplomacy is going on. Sort of a crazy map.
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