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Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

PostPosted: 04 May 2020, 01:07
by Woolgie
I've just checked and it is apparently May. Sorry, I was using the new calendar, where it is the 45th of Q. As it is now May I will make sure to get the next round of games up by the end of Monday 4th.

Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

PostPosted: 04 May 2020, 02:06
by jay65536
D1 March B ends in a 4way draw. A surprising (to me anyway) result; looking forward to seeing if there is a good AAR. We'll also have to wait until player identities are revealed for the February game to see what the new standings will be.

I also noticed in this game's public press a comment from France about how he wished the draw voting was not secret ballot. I'm quite intrigued by that, as secret ballot is considered to be 100% standard in competitive games, in my experience. Now that the anonymity has been removed, I'm very curious, MasterGR: was this a negotiating ploy or do you actually believe open ballot is better than secret? And if so, why?

Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

PostPosted: 04 May 2020, 07:58
by MasterGR
jay65536 wrote:D1 March B ends in a 4way draw. A surprising (to me anyway) result; looking forward to seeing if there is a good AAR. We'll also have to wait until player identities are revealed for the February game to see what the new standings will be.

I also noticed in this game's public press a comment from France about how he wished the draw voting was not secret ballot. I'm quite intrigued by that, as secret ballot is considered to be 100% standard in competitive games, in my experience. Now that the anonymity has been removed, I'm very curious, MasterGR: was this a negotiating ploy or do you actually believe open ballot is better than secret? And if so, why?


Jay, France here from D1 March B. I wrote in my AAR why I didn't push for a better result, but in summary I had to finish the game by May 8th for personal reasons, and unless I agreed to a 4-way now that wouldn't had been possible in my estimate. As So even though I could had achieved a better result, real life takes precedence.

To answer your second question, I do think that Open Ballot has a few advantages diplomatically. Basically, it can be used to expose a player's real intentions, for example by offering a draw to someone who's probably looking to solo. Basically, in my view it's a diplomatic tool. However, with the secret ballot that tool is gone, as you can even offer a draw and reject it, so it applies no diplomatic pressure.

Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

PostPosted: 04 May 2020, 19:25
by jay65536
I don't have time for a long reply now, but the topic of open vs. secret draw voting (as well as DIAS vs. noDIAS) already has a thread devoted to it: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=59628

I still stand by almost all, if not all, of what I wrote there over a year ago.

It sounds from your response like we agree on what the effect of open voting is; we just seem to disagree on whether that's a good thing. Also, we seem to disagree on the merits of secret ballots. I've played many games with secret ballots, and I can tell you from experience, secret ballot doesn't apply "no" diplomatic pressure; it just applies different pressure than open ballot. If you're in a secret ballot game, you vote in favor of a draw, and it fails, the negotiations might turn to "who voted this draw down and why?" If no one wants to admit to it, it's a whole new layer of intrigue.

Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

PostPosted: 05 May 2020, 07:20
by MasterGR
jay65536 wrote:I don't have time for a long reply now, but the topic of open vs. secret draw voting (as well as DIAS vs. noDIAS) already has a thread devoted to it: https://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/vie ... 31&t=59628

I still stand by almost all, if not all, of what I wrote there over a year ago.

It sounds from your response like we agree on what the effect of open voting is; we just seem to disagree on whether that's a good thing. Also, we seem to disagree on the merits of secret ballots. I've played many games with secret ballots, and I can tell you from experience, secret ballot doesn't apply "no" diplomatic pressure; it just applies different pressure than open ballot. If you're in a secret ballot game, you vote in favor of a draw, and it fails, the negotiations might turn to "who voted this draw down and why?" If no one wants to admit to it, it's a whole new layer of intrigue.


Perhaps you're right, I've only played a few games with secret ballot. I actually find that since nobody knows who voted for what, people just glance over a secret ballot that was rejected and move on. I read your post, and I also disagree with you with DIAS, I really dislike that format! But, since this thread is about PDL I'll stop here.

Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

PostPosted: 05 May 2020, 07:47
by Groo
jay65536 wrote:I don't have time for a long reply now, but the topic of open vs. secret draw voting (as well as DIAS vs. noDIAS) already has a thread devoted to it: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=59628

I still stand by almost all, if not all, of what I wrote there over a year ago.

It sounds from your response like we agree on what the effect of open voting is; we just seem to disagree on whether that's a good thing. Also, we seem to disagree on the merits of secret ballots. I've played many games with secret ballots, and I can tell you from experience, secret ballot doesn't apply "no" diplomatic pressure; it just applies different pressure than open ballot. If you're in a secret ballot game, you vote in favor of a draw, and it fails, the negotiations might turn to "who voted this draw down and why?" If no one wants to admit to it, it's a whole new layer of intrigue.


I'm with jay on this one.
In short, I think secret ballot is better for a leader who wants to solo (the option to start a draw vote and decline it yourself, it makes the game more dynamic), while an open ballot is better for a "stop the leader alliance" who just want to make the game more static and close it out.

BTW When do the new rounds start?

Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

PostPosted: 05 May 2020, 18:51
by jay65536
MasterGR: feel free to revive the old thread if you have more thoughts on draw voting! This thread being for PDL, I could use that thread to reply to your last comment on your secret ballot experience as well. I said earlier that secret ballot is standard in competitive games; in fact, so is noDIAS (under draw-based scoring systems anyway). I am in the minority among serious players in that I have a soft spot for it, although I think noDIAS can be good for more serious games too.

Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

PostPosted: 05 May 2020, 21:28
by MasterGR
Groo, you can see the schedule here: viewtopic.php?f=817&t=60357

It appears that you and I are playing again in July, check if you also have any games before that.

And regarding the secret ballot, yes I can see your arguments. I think I have benefited from secret ballots in general in the few games I’ve played with them, once even because somebody else was rejecting the draw but I ended up soloing... Go figure!

Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

PostPosted: 06 May 2020, 14:56
by Groo
thanks Master GR. I'm too stupid to understand that table, but I found this sheet Ben made (color-coded for people like me)
LINK TO LEAGUE TABLE

Our next game could easily be even more challenging :shock: :shock:

Deja, Groo, Ironcladsoldier, Master GR, Mr Aedron, mjparett and V....Nice company!

I'd check for hidden knives before letting any of us in the club if I were security :P

Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

PostPosted: 06 May 2020, 15:46
by Custer
Thanks Groo! I like that table!

Custer