PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

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Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

Postby Shyvve » 08 Mar 2020, 20:40

What shocked me was all the English holds on the last season. I realize everyone assumed it would draw but .... gracious!

What a fantastic game though. And V's solo also in the other Div1 game. Congrats to you both.
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Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

Postby jay65536 » 09 Mar 2020, 20:40

Rather than jump into analysis here, I guess I'll just start with an etiquette question. Are outsider comments welcome in AARs or are those just for the players?

Also, as far as the "race for third", I think the scores that are already in suggest that it is likely (though not certain) we may see an "edge case" of the scoring system in D1. lecrae just picked up 56 points for a loss. That number is in between the base scores for a 5way and a 4way. It is possible, though very unlikely, that a future game could end in a draw in which one of the drawing players does not earn as much as that result. It is also possible that if lecrae gets one good draw result, that 56 could keep him (her?) ahead of a player who scores two decent draws. (And based on what I saw in the first game, lecrae is a good enough player to rack up a good draw in a future game. He (she?) played the opening and midgame very well in the game that just finished.)

We will have to keep watching to find out!
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Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

Postby V » 09 Mar 2020, 22:09

jay65536 wrote:Rather than jump into analysis here, I guess I'll just start with an etiquette question. Are outsider comments welcome in AARs or are those just for the players?

Also, as far as the "race for third", I think the scores that are already in suggest that it is likely (though not certain) we may see an "edge case" of the scoring system in D1. lecrae just picked up 56 points for a loss. That number is in between the base scores for a 5way and a 4way. It is possible, though very unlikely, that a future game could end in a draw in which one of the drawing players does not earn as much as that result. It is also possible that if lecrae gets one good draw result, that 56 could keep him (her?) ahead of a player who scores two decent draws. (And based on what I saw in the first game, lecrae is a good enough player to rack up a good draw in a future game. He (she?) played the opening and midgame very well in the game that just finished.)

We will have to keep watching to find out!


Just an opinion, but I think your comments (& any other outsider) would be very welcome in an AAR for a game in which I participated. Probably more interesting than anything I would have to say.
As an aside I also like the aspect you are viewing our league with reference to how the league scores & thus future considerations regarding play. This aspect is one reason I found the whole idea of PDL had such potential. Your insights as to how this might play out are of great interest. I know scoring systems are something of a speciality for you. Best Regards V
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Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

Postby lecrae » 09 Mar 2020, 22:18

Typing up my AAR now - I'd love to hear y'alls thoughts on any game I participate in, and I hope I'm allowed to politely comment in other AARs as well. PDL seems like it's fostering a fun community for diplomacy discussion.

The scoring system has a huge impact on the way the game is played, in my opinion. And I like that impact! In my case, I tried using smaller powers to help me solo by arguing that I would help them get some points out of the game with their SC count. Other powers even hypothesized on the ways that soloes will affect future games, because now players may be scared to let a former soloist solo again and run away with the tourney. It's a new layer of the game that makes negotiations more complex.
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Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

Postby Groo » 10 Mar 2020, 16:58

lecrae wrote:Typing up my AAR now - I'd love to hear y'alls thoughts on any game I participate in, and I hope I'm allowed to politely comment in other AARs as well. PDL seems like it's fostering a fun community for diplomacy discussion.

The scoring system has a huge impact on the way the game is played, in my opinion. And I like that impact! In my case, I tried using smaller powers to help me solo by arguing that I would help them get some points out of the game with their SC count. Other powers even hypothesized on the ways that soloes will affect future games, because now players may be scared to let a former soloist solo again and run away with the tourney. It's a new layer of the game that makes negotiations more complex.


The games are anonymous countries so you'd have to recognize the past soloist in-game and convince others of it. It definitively gives the new layer to the game but this is IMO borderline metagaming. I can't say for sure if that's allowed or not. Can anyone clarify the metagaming rules in the league environment?
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Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

Postby V » 10 Mar 2020, 18:09

Groo wrote:
lecrae wrote:Typing up my AAR now - I'd love to hear y'alls thoughts on any game I participate in, and I hope I'm allowed to politely comment in other AARs as well. PDL seems like it's fostering a fun community for diplomacy discussion.

The scoring system has a huge impact on the way the game is played, in my opinion. And I like that impact! In my case, I tried using smaller powers to help me solo by arguing that I would help them get some points out of the game with their SC count. Other powers even hypothesized on the ways that soloes will affect future games, because now players may be scared to let a former soloist solo again and run away with the tourney. It's a new layer of the game that makes negotiations more complex.


The games are anonymous countries so you'd have to recognize the past soloist in-game and convince others of it. It definitively gives the new layer to the game but this is IMO borderline metagaming. I can't say for sure if that's allowed or not. Can anyone clarify the metagaming rules in the league environment?


This question was raised two years back in PDL2018 & if I remember correctly, Mike addressed it to the extent that identification of opposition players was inevitable in some cases (due to familiarity) & being a league environment their position might influence how you played against them. You don’t take on Liverpool the same way you would face Norwich, as an analogy.
The “ganging up” scenario that you suggest may occur is possibly a separate issue, but really hard to police. As one of the potentially “to be victimised” soloists (I got lucky folks) my attitude is “get over it”. If it happens so be it, my job is to diplomatically do my best to prevent it happening. It is Diplomacy after all. Try preventing this problem in F2F Diplomacy!
However Woolgie is in charge, as Mike was last time round & his view is law in my opinion, Best Regards V
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Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

Postby jay65536 » 10 Mar 2020, 18:50

V wrote:Just an opinion, but I think your comments (& any other outsider) would be very welcome in an AAR for a game in which I participated. Probably more interesting than anything I would have to say.
As an aside I also like the aspect you are viewing our league with reference to how the league scores & thus future considerations regarding play. This aspect is one reason I found the whole idea of PDL had such potential. Your insights as to how this might play out are of great interest. I know scoring systems are something of a speciality for you. Best Regards V


I don't have time to look into the games' move histories now, but V and lecrae (especially lecrae), I'll probably jump in on the AARs at some point. lecrae, I read yours, and I see you've already identified what I think are your two biggest mistakes (eliminating Austria, and ordering all holds in the last turn). There is a third big one, though, I think from Spring 08, that I will definitely point out in the other thread.

As far as the scoring system goes, I do find it a bit ironic that V so often complains when I bring up scoring systems, even though now he's expressing a view very much in line with mine. When you're playing under a scoring system, it ALWAYS affects how endgames are played (and to some degree it seeps back into the midgame too). That's why I thought it would be useful earlier in this thread to clarify the scoring system rules.

I, like V and lecrae, think that this is an interesting scoring system. I have minor issues with it, but I think overall it's an improvement over the PDL2018 system. We've already seen two endgames with big powers pushing for solos, and I think this system is better suited for those kinds of endgames than pure draw-based systems are. The main reason for that is something I pointed out before. Let's say a big power gets stalemated on 17--which almost happened in both January games. Under the PDL2018 system, they can't take a 4way or 5way or they'd be screwed in the standings--a 4way, for example, was worth 5 points plus the center-count tiebreaker. But in the PDL2020 system, a 17-center 5way is worth 120 points--the same as a 9-center 3way. So there is a penalty for not reducing the draw size, but not a crippling one. And a 17-center 4way is worth 131 points, which is in between an 11- and 12-center 3way (128 or 132). So again, a bit of a penalty, but still a solid result. You could take that draw if you had to and still be OK in the standings.

One reason this matters is that someone who's close to a solo can very reasonably say to a small power, "I could take a draw with you in it and it wouldn't hurt me too much scoring-wise." That opens up some negotiating leverage that otherwise wouldn't have been there.

But lecrae, I think this system handles solos in a way that's the opposite of what you're saying. In any system, solos get significantly more points than other results. And solos are hard to catch in any system. But this system actually makes solos EASIER to catch than many other systems, not harder.

Here's what I mean. Let's compare with the PDL2018 system. In that system, a solo was worth 40 points, a 2way was 20 points, and a 3way was 10 points. So a solo and a loss was worth 40, as was two 2ways. It would come down to the center-count tiebreak, which would probably favor the two 2ways (17 + 17 is likely to be more than 18 or 19 plus the centers for a loss). That means two 2ways would likely, but not certainly, beat a solo and a loss--and you needed FOUR 3ways to catch a solo.

This system is different. Here, an 18-center solo is worth 252 + 72 = 324 points. A 17-center 2way is worth 126 + 68 = 194 points. That is well over half of what a solo is worth. Two 2ways will almost always beat a solo and a loss in this system! And what is more, just as a 2way is worth more than half of a solo, a 3way is usually going to be worth more than one-third of one. For example, a 9-center 3way is worth 84 + 36 = 120 points. Three of those is worth 360 and therefore beats a solo and two losses with small (4 or fewer) center counts. Even more than that, a 17-center 2way plus a 12-center 3way is worth a total of 194 + 132 = 326 points, which beats a solo and an elimination!

The point is that this system makes it easier for people who haven't soloed to catch up to a solo. Whether this is good or bad is down to each person's opinion, but regardless of what you think about it, it is definitely worth knowing if you're going to play under this system.
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Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

Postby V » 10 Mar 2020, 20:50

Hi Jay,
Lol, us & scoring systems, go way back...
I think our only difference is I don't care about any system & agree it influences play but don't care in what manner.
I've noticed this is a speciality of yours & you know how any system could/should influence the play.
My view is that although I'd love to be able to work this out & then act upon the conclusion, in real a game situation I doubt I'd be able to pull it off. At which point I return to my standpoint that I don't care about the scoring system. It’s the same for everyone & therefore fair.
I won't play Pastis or anything that limits game length. That's a step too far. It becomes more that a scoring system & transforms the game to such an extent it’s barely Diplomacy.
I do enjoy reading your analysis however when systems are compared.
Best Regards V
Last edited by V on 11 Mar 2020, 01:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

Postby Custer » 11 Mar 2020, 01:04

And then there's people like me who don't know and don't care. Therefore, no influence one way or the other.

:roll:

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

:lol:

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Re: PDL 2020 Viewers Lounge

Postby jay65536 » 12 Mar 2020, 19:28

V wrote:Hi Jay,
Lol, us & scoring systems, go way back...
I think our only difference is I don't care about any system & agree it influences play but don't care in what manner.


Maybe it doesn't come off well enough when I'm talking about this stuff, but as much as I express opinions on what I like and don't like about scoring systems, as a player I am usually very happy to play under any system. There are things I don't like about the Dixiecon system, but that's never stopped me from going to Dixiecon (or a different tournament running that system). Sum of Squares, Carnage, same deal. I'd play under just about any system while still having my opinions about what I like.

Also, like you, I consider the scoring system separate from any rule about limiting the number of turns in the game (like in the SuperPastis tournament). I have never played in a turn-limited game, although I expect if I ever play overseas (I live in North America) I will then.
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