World Influence AAR

Large-scale game on a world map, with major and minor powers. Created and GMd by asudevil.

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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby vaderi » 05 Aug 2015, 21:59

Lump of AARness

I guess I was just a blip on the map for other people :(

AardvarkArmy wrote:Perhaps my biggest diplomatic success of the entire game was a “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em” appeal to France. Tacitly admitting that I was the biggest thorn in the side of the “secret” UK/France alliance, I suggested that I would be more valuable as an ally than as an enemy, and asked to join the superpower alliance. Mind you, I was a distant junior partner at less than half the size to which they had quickly grown; and mind you this was the same time that I was working to see UK booted from my region. But it worked. I was invited to be a part of their alliance, and managed to play “double agent” for a couple of seasons – feeding them useful intel about Nigerian plans, for example.


Yeah :D that was a big coup for you.

Like AA, I like to be the initiator in my discussions with my neighbors. I had wanted to play France because of it's unique position on 3 continents that were actually with reach of one another and so I reached out to every single neighbor I could to see which ones were amiable to me keeping or expanding my holdings on their continent.

I tend to see the game in terms of who my neighbors are rather than the phases of the game.

The Members of the EVIL UK/FRANCE/GERMANY GLOBAL DOMINATION ALLIANCE!!!! a.k.a. The European Triple Alliance
The European Triple Alliance (while it held) was an obvious move for myself, UK and Germany though I think that our initial efforts to keep it a secret were counter productive and probably led to much of the mess that ended up getting me stabbed. Marsman initially proposed the alliance and we had included Germany before the first turn finished.

UK - Marsman57
The whole Alliance began and ended with Marsman, which is kind of funny to me. Marsman and I got along really well and we were working together really well for the beginning of the game. I think it was probably Marsman's suggestion not to tell anybody about the alliance which I guess was supposed to drive me and Antigonos more into his corner. The alliance started showing fractures around 2013 when Antigonos built a fleet in the Baltic as well as being resistant to Marsman's desire to attack Russia at that moment, so Marsman approached me about stabbing Antigonos. I told him that was stupid since the three of us were much more powerful together and Antigonos was right to not want to attack at that moment. When Antigonos proposed just about the exact opposite plan the next turn(because of Marsman's planned division of Russian centers) I told him that I'd side with Marsman if he stabbed. To try and hold the alliance together I put the issue before everybody and told them both to stop being silly, that we could fairly divide the spoils in the north and attack soon, as well as making it clear that I would be on the side of whoever was got stabbed. When Marsman finally stabbed me I demanded to know how he thought he benefited from stabbing me, and he said he'd let me know at the end of the game because it was all part of his 'plan', that and he was worried he'd stop expanding soon(which is the most stupidly ludicrous thing anybody has ever said to me in diplomacy). The stab particularly bothered me because I only had 5 centers in Europe, the majority of my power was outside of Europe and attacking me without Venezuela's direct intervention was just dumb since I'd retain around 2/3rds of my strength and be pissed off. So Marsman decided to leave AardvarkArmy out of the stab :? . To top the bizarre nature of the stab off, Marsman never really got to benefit from any centers he grabbed from me since he had to defend the centers in Morrocco and Algiers from the day he seized them to the end of the game. Sure I was stabbable in Europe, but why stab when you basically don't get anything from it?

Germany - Antigonos
Antigonos from the start was not friends with Raphtown in Israel and got into a fight with him quickly, which ended up being the second thing which got me stabbed. Things were going well in the Med until 2013 when with 88IP Nigeria still in a snit from my retreat to Con(more on that later) gathered every single anti France vote he could and seized Italy. The loss of Italy was more than just losing 2 fleets, it was losing 2 fleets which happened to be the center of the defense that Antigonos and I had built in the Central Med to hold back and eventually push back Israel and Egypt. Antigonos got very angry with me for not putting my fleets in the correct places and what not, allowing this to hurt us more than it could have, I responded in a fury that I'd been following his advice and we were still in a major bind. Things thankfully cooled down but it did seem to erode his confidence in my ability to hold off Israel and Egypt. Because of the loss of Italy I lost my builds for the year and we lost our dominating position in the Med, both of which set the stage for me to be stabbed in 2016. Later I tried to get Antigonos to stab Marsman for several years, partially because I couldn't believe he wasn't stabbing with the way Marsman turned his back to him(because he apparently wasn't so unwilling to stab me, yay loyalty :roll: ) and partially because AardvarkArmy had suggested it and I was willing to give it a shot.

India - Aeschines
The Honorary member of the EVIL UK/FRANCE/GERMANY GLOBAL DOMINATION ALLIANCE!!!! Aeschines and I were chatting for most of the game up to a little while after I got stabbed and around 2012 I inducted him into the alliance as our only honorary member, not that I told anyone else that he was an honorary member :lol: . For a while I tried to get Aeschines to help us with Egypt or Israel but as he has said, he never really considered it since it was so untenable.

The Members of the NEBULOUS ANTI-UK/FRANCE/GERMANY ALLIANCE!!!!
Venezuela - AardvarkArmy
As AardvarkArmy has already said, he was the main instigator of the panic over the European Triple alliance, for a long time I had no idea that he was behind it, as all the vitriol came from Egypt and Russia. Venezuela or Peru had been my preferred ally in South America from the start and when Peru ended up rebuffing my offers of an alliance against Brazil and AA was so friendly and willing to work against Brazil, I decided to stick with AA. I probably should have been suspicious that out of everybody I talked to only Peru and Brazil were unhappy with AA but I didn't really notice at the time. Of course by the end of 2011 he came to me and made his “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em” appeal and I took it at mostly face value, and he joined the alliance as a junior mistrusted member.

Egypt - glacier777
I still don't know the whole story of how AardvarkArmy convinced Glacier777 that I was out for his head but right from the start Glacier777 was convinced I was out to get him, which was especially problematic since I only really wanted Tun. As it became clear that Egypt and Russia were going to be major critics of the European Triple Alliance and if they got big major foes for us we tried to find ways to deal with them, part of which involved a whole big crazy scheme with Russia that never really went anywhere and many attempts to pressure Egypt through the Med. When Egypt got hammered back to his home centers I expected Israel to turn on him, and I remain surprised, this is game probably the least stabby I have ever seen Raphtown be.

Russia - Alman
Germany and Russia quickly got into a fight and Alman started looking for allies, and so of course he came to me and UK to try and split us off from Antigonos, though I never seriously considered them Marsman and Antigonos had a whole plan cooked up to sucker Alman into thinking that we were going to stab Germany and then when Alman attacked, not helping him and instead jumping him from behind. It never went anywhere and actually got Marsman and Antigonos at each others throats in 2012-13. I should have let the whole stupid affair tear apart the European Triple Alliance, but I held the pair of them together by threatening to side with the other if either of them stabbed and letting the other know about it.

Others
Venezuela - AardvarkArmy
What does it say about your alliance when the sanest person in the alliance is the conniving backstabber who admitted to being the backstabber who set up your biggest enemy alliance? Nothing good that's for sure, over the next couple of years, our shared goals in South America combined with the bickering between Germany and UK back in Europe and his being one of the most fun people in the game to talk with meant that I admitted AA into my trust much more than anybody else in the game, then UK stabbed me and I was left with South America and Africa. I knew that AA would be stabbing me soon but I still had to wrap up my war with Brazil and hold of further advances by Nigeria and UK, so I stuck with AA. The only attempt at stabbing him first that I made was mistimed and fumbled, luckily AA didn't just crush me out of hand like I thought he would at that point. When the inevitable stab came I actually offered to move my units out of the way, I liked AA and I was certain that with the loss of what now constituted half of my remaining SCs that Nigeria would quickly overrun me, and I was tired of the game at that point. The next year AA got me and Nigeria to agree to a truce and work together, this got me back into the game. I was briefly back and engaged in the game, until I had to move in June and accidentally NMR'd and lost just about all the progress I'd made against UK which combined with only Nigeria and AA (and China a bit) talking with me left me pretty much checked out of the game.

Thank you AardvarkArmy for being the best and most faithful Enemy-Ally-Enemy-Ally-Enemy-Ally-*Enemy :lol:

Nigeria - Flatley/Stanislaw
Of all my many neighbors only Nigeria didn't respond, leading through one mistake or misunderstanding to a war that would continue on for most of the game until Venezuela finally put his foot down :lol: . Flatley was barely communicating at all for the first year and so we clashed as he was the only player I felt would attack me early on. I eventually got Flatley to talk and it turned out that once again the Nebulous Anti-European Triple Alliance group had been letting him know that France was out to get him and had been from the outset. We actually smoothed that out fairly quickly and things were looking good for 2011 as Flatley and I suckered Egypt into taking Tun from his own Minor :twisted: and I moved into ANB to both protect Flatley from a South African move and to if South Africa was willing an attack on Flatley. I ended up letting Flatley displace me in the spring of 2012 and here I made the mistake that I believe ended up getting me stabbed, instead of disbanding F ANB I retreated to Con (I wasn't thinking about disbanding as an option so early in the game and thought Con would be better than one of his home centers) This of course destroyed the trust that Flatley and I had built up and engulfed me in a war I could neither win nor end. I ended up building 3 armies in Africa in 2012 which were my last builds before UK stabbed me in 2016. When Stanislaw took over I saw a chance for ending the war between us, but we were unable to trust one another enough to really achieve anything. So we continued nipping at each other until in the Winter of 2018 Venezuela forced Stanislaw and myself to sit down and negotiate, the alternative was getting stomped on :) . Afterwards Stanislaw and I did really well together and just before the game ended had been worrying together about Venezuela stabbing us when our usefulness ran out.

China - GhostEcho
I don't really know if you thought he could peel me away from Venezuela's sphere late game or not, but even early game it was fun chatting and hearing how things were going on the other side of the globe, especially since you were in the middle of such a whirlwind of stabs for most of the early game.

Brazil - Mouse
Mouse was the other potential option for an alliance in South America but I never felt comfortable with him and he never was comfortable with allowing me to continue to exist in South America, so when AA seemingly proved more friendly and reliable I jumped Mouse and eventually was able to defeat him. Though the loss of Italy in 2013 very nearly destroyed me for him.

South Africa - pjkon/EpicDim
South Africa and I had a bumpy relationship, initially I approached Pjkon about dealing with Nigeria and proposed a pan African alliance to destroy Nigeria, of course right from the start Egypt was at my throat instead of Nigeria and Pjkon soon discovered that he didn't really have the capability to deal with Nigeria outside of a stalemate. After a bit of intrigue we stopped communicating until around 2013-14 when my fight with Nigeria flared up again and I came to him asking for aid, Pjkon was extremely hesitant to join in and it likely would have stayed there but the next year he was replaced by EpicDim who was much more eager to fight Brazil and Nigeria and so with me egging him on, EpicDim distracted both Nigeria and Brazil at a crucial juncture and allowed me to regain ground against Brazil and to firm up defenses against Nigeria. Sadly Australia and India soon Jumped him and I could do nothing but watch, then I got stabbed and I really couldn't do anything but watch and sympathize. It wasn't that I didn't want to help, but I was not able to get fleets down that way.

And that's how I saw the world.

I would like to point out that not only am I one of 2 nations who survived to the end of the game, but I'm the bigger of the 2 :D you may have stabbed me Marsman, but you didn't take me out of the game! :twisted: (AardvarkArmy basically did that :cry: )

*Does last turn not quite finalized stabbing count as stabbing? :?:

It was a good game and it was a lot of fun to play with everyone.
Last edited by vaderi on 05 Aug 2015, 23:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby Antigonos » 05 Aug 2015, 22:00

asudevil wrote:But if both of you guys got eliminated...it very well could have made the board mixed up enough to have a much better solo shot as I believe China and Venezuela DID want a solo....or at least get a much more interesting final result (which would have played out til Christmas)

And Nigeria only REALLY made it to the final draw because he was strong at the right time...if UK/Germany were collapsing "at the right time"...Nigeria would not have built back up into what he was and India/Venezuela probably would have taken him out instead of allowing him to regrow.

Personal GM thoughts.


You may be right about opening up solo chances but this supports the view that UK and I made the right decisions when we did not stab on another as I do not play to make the game more interesting but to get into a draw or obtain a solo.

As to Nigeria making it...that would depend on when the stab occured so the latter it was the more likely he would have made it. The stab also might have opened up some possibilities for him. As to Venezuela and India taking him out, little doubt Venezuela would have been so inclined but in light of your own assessment of the increased solo chances for Venezuela would India have seen Nigeria as a target or a counter-weight? Perhaps India might tell us.

Of course if Nigeria had been eliminated or not part of the draw it would have given AA his magic draw number and therefore given the game a proper conclusion. I realize some may deem it churlish of me not to have cooperated in this effort.
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby ninjaruler » 05 Aug 2015, 22:14

Alright, well this game was okay, I obviously messed up in some major spots.

When it first started I was specifically in good communication with china, and russia at least it felt like, it took a little while to actually get russia talking, but once it did, things weren't too bad. For the first couple years everything went alright, just picking up the neutral centers around me planning to work with china most of the way. Then Iran and Russia proposed that I stab china and at first it felt like a good idea, but china ended up convincing me out of it, and I ended up hitting russia. I made one mis order and lost my chance to solidify my base on mainland, while at this point china started sweeping up behind me. I wasn't really in a position to hit china back, so I figured I might as well as just keep hitting russia, since my game was pretty much over at that point. Then I got into alaska, and a few years later got 2 centers. until recently when venezuela took them back. Good game to venezuela and the others who made it in the draw.
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby asudevil » 05 Aug 2015, 22:24

Antigonos wrote:You may be right about opening up solo chances but this supports the view that UK and I made the right decisions when we did not stab on another as I do not play to make the game more interesting but to get into a draw or obtain a solo.


Very true...I think if you could have convinced Isreal to do SOMETHING so that he wasn't poised to pounce...you could have...but yeah, once you two were so tangled up ... it was going to be hard to break them.

As to Nigeria making it...that would depend on when the stab occured so the latter it was the more likely he would have made it. The stab also might have opened up some possibilities for him. As to Venezuela and India taking him out, little doubt Venezuela would have been so inclined but in light of your own assessment of the increased solo chances for Venezuela would India have seen Nigeria as a target or a counter-weight? Perhaps India might tell us.

Of course if Nigeria had been eliminated or not part of the draw it would have given AA his magic draw number and therefore given the game a proper conclusion. I realize some may deem it churlish of me not to have cooperated in this effort.


Nope, got to do what's best for you.
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby asudevil » 05 Aug 2015, 22:25

Also, shameless plug for the next game I will be GM'ing

viewtopic.php?f=253&t=49896

Devious GM 2...its stuff happens on steroids.
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby ninjaruler » 05 Aug 2015, 23:25

asudevil wrote:Thank you for the GREAT AAR Ghost. And yes, when people were freaking about a solo with 25 SC...I knew this was going to a draw early. You could also tell that people were starting to get bored with it (a SUPER hard issue)

As for the replacements...really for an 8 month game...it wasn't TOO bad. We had a replacement USA, S.Africa, Egypt, Iran (twice) and Nigeria. Iran and Nigeria were both totally out of the blue family emergencies...not as sure about the others. But 5 of 18...isn't TERRIBLE.

But yeah, I wish we wouldn't have had them...I hate the replacements...its why I tried to be so picky about players for this game.

Asudevil I want to say sorry that I got bored at the end, I suppose I could have worked harder to not do that. And thank you for running the game, It was enjoyable. Up untill my demise.

AardvarkArmy Thank you for holding your promises. I am glad that I helped you out early on with the minor center votes.
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby asudevil » 05 Aug 2015, 23:34

Thanks for the AAR Vaderia...I forgot about the punking Egypt into taking his own minor move...that was fucking HILARIOUS
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby Aeschines » 05 Aug 2015, 23:43

vaderi wrote:India - Aeschines
The Honorary member of the EVIL UK/FRANCE/GERMANY GLOBAL DOMINATION ALLIANCE!!!! Aeschines and I were chatting for most of the game up to a little while after I got stabbed and around 2012 I inducted him into the alliance as our only honorary member, not that I told anyone else that he was an honorary member :lol: . For a while I tried to get Aeschines to help us with Egypt or Israel but as he has said, he never really considered it since it was so untenable.


Holy crap! I can't believe I forgot my most treasured moment in the game in my actual AAR! Vaderi, you really were wonderful to talk to when we did - and I'm sorry you got knocked out/I forgot to mention you in my AAR. :oops:

Antigonos wrote:As to Nigeria making it...that would depend on when the stab occured so the latter it was the more likely he would have made it. The stab also might have opened up some possibilities for him. As to Venezuela and India taking him out, little doubt Venezuela would have been so inclined but in light of your own assessment of the increased solo chances for Venezuela would India have seen Nigeria as a target or a counter-weight? Perhaps India might tell us.

I saw Nigeria primarily as a counterweight. My greatest mistake in stabbing South Africa (the second time) was in doing it before AardvarkArmy had attacked - that resulted in AA picking up a number of South African centers as SA turned to fight me exclusively. I wouldn't have risked doing that again. At the very least, I would have held steady with Nigeria until Stanislaw's forces were committed to defending against Venezuela.

Does that answer your question, Antigonos?
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby VGhost » 06 Aug 2015, 01:47

Venezuela's basic claim is completely accurate:

AardvarkArmy wrote:If you are unsatisfied with the draw that we ended up with, you will find no more decisive crossroads moment than this one to explain how/why we [ended] up where we did.


However his claims about the turning point in the latest response about the UK-Venezuela deal didn't match my recollection at all, so I've gone back and tracked down the relevant messages. Certainly he gave more details than I remembered. I'm not sure it quite matches entirely, but it does explain quite a bit of why (as he says) I ended up helping to "pull the plug" - although certainly I didn't entirely "take it upon myself" out of nowhere.

AardvarkArmy wrote:
GhostEcho wrote: I had no idea how much you'd put into getting UK to come round: I'm not sure if this was due to your communication, my comprehension, or what. The impression I got (right or wrong) was that a "deal with UK" was a side-project, almost, not a several year effort. If I'd realized (and again this may have been my misreading) that this was your "Plan A", I would have probably communicated differently with UK, because I would have known it was the keystone of your plan.


This is an utterly mystifying statement. We had an exchange of MULTIPLE messages spanning more than 10 days.

- I portrayed the UK deal as game changing breaking news
- described the fake war plan in great detail
- specified an exact number of builds we believed we could get for UK to pop up in Europe
- specified an exact target date for the attack
- urged you to lay the groundwork for coming in from the east with India and Israel to complete the knock out blow
- even quoted a UK message in which he expressed a personal animus motivating him to turn on Germany

It was a carefully orchestrated plan, spanning 3 seasons, requiring a huge amount of comms and coordination and trust building between UK and I.


All of this is actually true, except the "in great detail", and the "game changing news". I never saw it as "game changing news" because I didn't expect UK and Germany to find a line they could hold (I was wrong), and so the only "change" was how fast Germany collapsed - I assumed throughout that Venezuela would renew the attack on UK once he had got UK to do what he wanted. And I never had enough detail to know whether execution was matching the plan - in fact the only specific details I got were about something not matching, as you'll see.

He claims

AardvarkArmy wrote:And, by the way, the immediate impact for UK and i would have been to grow him dramatically and to halt my northward advance. Not exactly a recipe for me to easily "roll over" him later.


...But an essential part of his plan was his "escrow" scheme, meaning he would have ended up with UK centers he could either roll over immediately (negating at least some of UK's builds) once UK had cracked Germany, or hold in ransom in return for cooperation. France's fate should be considered analogous and that did not end well for France.

That, however, can be a difference of opinion - and any opinion is hypothetical, as the scheme didn't come off. Venezuela is definitely overstating is when he goes on to claim:

AardvarkArmy wrote:It was a carefully orchestrated plan, spanning 3 seasons, requiring a huge amount of comms and coordination and trust building between UK and I. You were "in the loop" at every stage throughout the process.

UK and I executed perfectly, it was all systems go for launch, and it absolutely would have succeeded.


All of this is as much as to say, Venezuela's knowledge and goals were perfectly shared by UK if I hadn't "meddled" - and also that knowledge of all the details was in my possession. As you'll see below, (a) there were foul-ups from the beginning, (b) UK was never entirely sold on the plan, and (c) while I was in the loop that there was a plan, the details weren't there.

I think this is Venezuela's first message on the topic. This is during the Fall 2021 Season:

AardvarkArmy wrote:Before Spring season, I offered UK a peace deal of sorts... He more-or-less complied with my cessation of hostilities terms this spring... But here is a note that came in to me this morning:

marsman57 wrote:In other news, I'm sick of Antigonos on a personal level. You treat me well and I'll do the job you need done with him.


Looks like an assault on Germany could be picking up steam


Notice that in the very first message, Venezuela admits he's already had a - mistake. Or a sabotage attempt. This was immediately followed by:

AardvarkArmy wrote:Ramp up your communications with UK, and try to play nice with him. A credible plan coming together to take down Gemany...


I was in contact with UK anyway, but I didn't want to seem like I was trying to push him into something, which I assumed would make him suspicious. So I sent this:

GhostEcho wrote:...he's been going on about some deal he says he's made with you where you get a truce and he gets you to attack Germany. I know I suggested this myself earlier, but I don't know whether to believe him, or whether it's [a feint for a Pacific attack: this was the same time I noticed Venezuela's errant NCP fleet].


While I was waiting for a reply, the turn processed. It's now Winter 2021/Spring 2022. Venezuela continued with:

AardvarkArmy wrote:What appears to be a muddled free-for-all in North America was 100% staged this season - even my autodisband in NEB was planned and voluntary.

We are maneuvering units into position so that I can kill his units WITHOUT taking centers, so he will get a sudden blast of 5-6 builds in Europe to take Germany by surprise.

I will hold his vacant centers in "escrow" just as I did with France in Brazil, to enforce the cooperation and give him time to succeed, gradually syphoning off centers in North America as he gains new ones in Europe.


And then the claim:

AardvarkArmy wrote:UK will attack in precisely 1 year - we need the coming spring and fall season to complete the demolition of 5-6 units in North America, for him to rebuild in Europe.

However, a feint by Israel and/or China/India this year would probably be beneficial in distracting him and causing him to shift even further away from UK's centers.


So we have Venezuela with a timetable (as he said) and asking for a feint (as he said). However I was hearing nothing from Israel, and anyway the feint didn't seem that important. UK might grab OMS, but then I'd either have to attack UK or squeeze through the Ural gap and stretch myself out; either way Israel seemed most likely to profit and he wasn't talking and I didn't trust him. But most tellingly, the message I did get back from UK sounded a very different note:

marsman57 wrote:What you say matches some stuff I've said to Venezuela but I'm uncertain if it's a wise course of action to actually follow through. He doesn't seem so trustworthy. What do you think?


As you see, this doesn't sound anything like your claim of careful planning with UK to set this up, let alone something you were putting a lot of effort into, let alone something UK was 100% set on seeing through.

I do want to correct one error: all this actually happened in between attempts to get Germany to attack. In fact while all this was going on I was trying to play the "sympathy" and "worry" cards with him to gain a little trust.

About this time, a sample of some of the messages:

China:
GhostEcho wrote:UK and Israel both seem to have left you alone at this point, and our border has been somewhat forcefully stabilized, but I'm wondering what sorts of things you're hearing about over in Europe. Presumably Venezuela's going to be encouraging me to turn on India as soon as Australia is "pacified" [this actually never happened, either because Venezuela was serious about seeing us both in the final draw, or because we hadn't finished Australia yet or both]...


Germany:
Antigonos wrote:I continue to think it would be suicide for either me or UK to stab the other and the return of original Israel makes me even more certain of this as I feel the best I can hope for in my relationship with him is a very watchful neutrality.


That aside, in response to UK's uncertainty, I sent a message I intended to be somewhat ambiguous. Re-reading it, it definitely has the connotation that I wanted him to not go through with an attack on Germany. What I meant to do was (a) find out details of what was supposed to be happening, (b) raise the specter of a German attack, but (c) not come across as myself invested in the outcome - "Look, I'm only thinking of you."

GhostEcho wrote:I'm really not sure. It looks like Venezuela's serious about staying on my good side, for whatever reason, but I don't know if he's followed through with any deals he made with you. I think your best shot of making a final draw is probably to stick by Germany - I have a hard time believing Ven. would let you establish a position you could hold, especially as he continues his attack now while theoretically trying to make a deal. (On the other hand, Germany, if he had any initiative, could probably knock you out pretty cleanly; I don't know how long his "honor the alliance" mentality will hold out over pragmatism.)


UK agreed with my assessment:

marsman57 wrote:I think you're right regarding Ven. Working with him seems nice in theory but nothing good will probably come.


And that, as you say, probably killed the plan. So yes, I had a hand in preventing it from happening; but based on the information I had I don't think that the decision is particularly surprising.

---

The most interesting thing to me is UK's perception per his comment:

marsman57 wrote:The funny thing is... Venezuela and I did come to [an agreement]. I thought it would be a really big risk, but if he properly displaced enough of my units, I'd get plenty of builds to make a move. We spent a couple of seasons covertly working together to set up for a major displacement of my North American units without my losing SCs.


During the game, UK didn't communicate any of this to me! So when I sent my last message on the subject, I was writing to somebody I thought was undecided and inclined to not go through with the plan, but actually my thoughts on Germany made him think:

marsman57 wrote:...this was enough to question if you'd be on my side if I made a move on Germany and sealed me to not do anything.


This even though I couldn't have done anything one way or the other about the situation - I suppose it's nice to know my opinion was that important, but it's a pity the fog led to all these misreadings. It would have been cool to find out what happened.

---

Finally, one other thing that probably influenced me, though I'd forgotten it was simultaneous: after Venezuela's initial flurry of messages, and after I got the first (vague) reply from UK, there was a dust-up between India and Venezuela over DMZs and fleet passage. I was more or less on Venezuela's side for that one, although eventually India got his way. The thing I think influenced the other opinion, though, was a message Venezuela sent to me privately about our plans for Africa:

AardvarkArmy wrote:1) I deflected and deferred the Israel vs Nigeria discussion because it seems obvious that the plans vis-a-vis Germany will be a factor in that decision, but I don't want to tip off India yet on the scope or imminent activity on that plan


Now, my suggested plan was this:

GhostEcho wrote:I'd favor (for now) India assisting Nigeria's campaign against South Africa but not directly interfering with the Israel-Nigeria war, if that's practical.


Which was in reply to India's proposal:

Aeschines wrote:I wonder if it might not be better to prop up the [current] loser (Nigeria).

My thinking here is that if we're the only thing keeping Nigeria alive she will eventually begin to destroy/maunver her units away from our borders with her. Then, maybe with Germany's help we eventually knock out Israel. At that point we don't need to keep Nigeria around any longer. ... [Finally, after that] I would be willing to whittle down one of the UK or Germany...


I can't reproduce any chain of thought directly explaining what was going on. For most of the game I would say I saw Germany as a "stable" (if frustrating) power and therefore a bad target (or an endgame one), while Israel was fairly successful but mysterious throughout the game and I didn't want him expanding unless it created an opening. But I'm not sure what exact combination of thoughts led to all of the communications discussed above.
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"I'm not panicking, I'm watching you panic. It's more entertaining." - Elli Quinn
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby AardvarkArmy » 06 Aug 2015, 03:47

ROFL!

GhostEcho, you are a SUPREME diplomat! Your ability to self-rationalize any sentence or set of words is remarkable!

I give you details on tactics, goals, timeline and motivations for the planned attack, along with updates to assure you that what you are seeing is in fact the steady progression toward that goal, and you still insist that you didn't have enough detail!!! Sorry that I didn't send my complete set of orders to Beijing for pre-approval! LOL!

Then, the really BIG one: You told UK: " I think your best shot of making a final draw is probably to stick by Germany - I have a hard time believing Ven. would let you establish a position you could hold" and you now describe that as: "has the connotation that I wanted him to not go through with an attack on Germany." Ya think that's a "connotation?" Seems pretty clear cut and unambiguous to me!

Lastly, I liked how you slyly try to slip in your other motivations - it slides from you didn't get enough info from me, to, oh wait, it was Israel you didn't get info from, to, oh wait, your hoped-for role wasn't going to be important anyway, to, oh wait, you still wanted Germany to be the European victor.

I think that last point really hits the nail on the head. I ALSO WISHED GERMANY WOULD REACH FOR HIS BRASS RING, but after 10 years of banging my head on that wall, I had accepted the reality that it was never, ever, ever going to happen. The real problem here was that you had not yet found your way to that core reality - perhaps you had not had as many conversations with him on the topic as I had, perhaps you are more dewy-eyed optimistic than I am, but you still had your eggs in the German basket.

And so, you killed the UK deal. And so ended our last real chance for an end-game shake-up. And so we now have our draw. That's just it...
SOLOS
ICE&FIRE.1-Martell/EXCALIBUR.1-Angles/EXCALIBUR.2-Scots/EMERALD-Sno/MOD.4-Italy/SENGOKU.1-OdaNobu/S.AMERICA.1-Peru

DRAWS
1930-China/BattleIsleA-Winterfell/S&S-Turkey/WORLD INFL-Venezuela/LECRAE-Dublin/WWIV.2-Cali/IMPERIAL1861.1-Trky/YNGSTWN.1-Grmny/AMERICAS.2-Mex/AFRICAN.2-S.Arabia
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