World Influence AAR

Large-scale game on a world map, with major and minor powers. Created and GMd by asudevil.

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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby VGhost » 05 Aug 2015, 15:04

I object to Venezuela's implication that because I was doing "nothing" I wasn't actually trying to win. Coming off an early-and-middle game where I had stabbed Iran, Japan, UK (repeatedly!), Russia, and Australia, and with no easy fronts to work with, in my opinion I had to sit quiet for a bit to rebuild trust, and put in work diplomatically rather than tactically. I may have been wrong in this judgment. I'll admit that my "meddling" did screw up the UK and German would-be stabs; but this seems a consequence of cross-purpose planning as much as anything else. But eventually by pulling back on my personal aggression for a while I was able to get things moving again (with Israel), and as I noted in my AAR I was eventually supposed to get the Australian centers, which would have given me more room for action. I don't see any reason a lull in aggression can't be part of a strategy.

As for UK and Germany: as I said above, I wanted Germany the dominant power, not UK. It turns out that might have happened had the deal with Venezuela and UK gone through; but that's a miscalculation, a strategic error, not a lack of effort. Venezuela claims he would have completely seriously supported UK but I'm not sure his game supports that: he relied on chaos throughout; he points to France, but when supporting France lost its purpose (because UK was slowly pushing though), he picked up all the French centers he "escrowed"; and I have no doubt that when UK stalled out again he would have done the same in that case - or split UK with Israel, assuming Israel made the push North Venezuela envisions.
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby AardvarkArmy » 05 Aug 2015, 15:33

GhostEcho wrote: Venezuela claims he would have completely seriously supported UK but I'm not sure his game supports that: he relied on chaos throughout; he points to France, but when supporting France lost its purpose (because UK was slowly pushing though), he picked up all the French centers he "escrowed"; and I have no doubt that when UK stalled out again he would have done the same in that case - or split UK with Israel, assuming Israel made the push North Venezuela envisions.


1) Ummm, wouldn't a conflagration in Europe qualify as chaos?

2) LOL! Yeah, I grabbed French centers.... after holding them in escrow for like 8 years!!! I think UK would have been satisfied with a 8 year opportunity

3) I did not envision splitting UK with Israel... but would that have been a bad outcome? Now that I think of it, that would have gotten us to my original 4-way dream.

I stand 100% by my assertions. AARs are a time of truthiness.
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ICE&FIRE.1-Martell/EXCALIBUR.1-Angles/EXCALIBUR.2-Scots/EMERALD-Sno/MOD.4-Italy/SENGOKU.1-OdaNobu/S.AMERICA.1-Peru

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1930-China/BattleIsleA-Winterfell/S&S-Turkey/WORLD INFL-Venezuela/LECRAE-Dublin/WWIV.2-Cali/IMPERIAL1861.1-Trky/YNGSTWN.1-Grmny/AMERICAS.2-Mex/AFRICAN.2-S.Arabia
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby marsman57 » 05 Aug 2015, 16:20

AardvarkArmy wrote:I twisted Mexico’s arm to snuff UK out of Belize, then let him take UK’s wrath for it as if my hands were clean.


I was pretty sure you were involved in that. Mexico may have even claimed as much, but the burden of retaliation goes on the person who makes the move, not the arm twister. As all of you know, I'm very apt to play both sides of a situation myself. :)

AardvarkArmy wrote:UK, just as I had really, really meant all my entreaties to Germany over a 10 year span, I also really, really meant to be your ally in this endeavor once I finally faced the reality of German intransigence.


Since AARs are for open honesty, I will talk about my own arm twisting here. I know that Venezuela and Germany had it out on an almost personal level at some points. A lot of that was my doing. I realized that Antigonos has a tendency for bluster* pretty early on in the game, and I realized that Venezuela was getting under his skin. So, I kept complaining and pushing, and sharing anything that was remotely negative about Venezuela. Antigonos would ask me, "should I say X to him or is that too much?" or "should I share Y publicly or is that too much?" and I'd always say, "no, you should definitely share it" when I'm really thinking "wow, sharing that is going to make you look bad". But, it was designed to serve a greater purpose which was to make sure that Venezuela and Germany were personally so far gone from each other that they would never ally against me. Obviously, I can't take credit for engineering all of the animosity (you guys fought over some silly stuff in the public topics!), but I definitely did anything I could to encourage it and push it further.

* - Seriously dude, you don't know how many messages I had to send to mutual allies saying, "don't worry, you know how he is, he's on board with the plan"

As to whether AA was honest with me? I felt that you were. You hated Germany so much at that point that you'd be glad to see him gone. I expected you might be up my tail once I'd weakened him sufficiently that he'd not survive the game though. The problem was that if I didn't feel that both China and Israel were on board, I didn't think I would have been successful. I would have hit what Antigonos described: a situation where I'd gained 6-8 SCs and then ground into a death spiral while everyone else picked at our carcasses. I needed decisive action immediately from all neighbors.

The problem? I didn't trust China...

GhostEcho wrote:Coming off an early-and-middle game where I had stabbed Iran, Japan, UK (repeatedly!)


REPEATEDLY. I wanted to work with you in SE Asia SO FREAKING BAD, but you would just screw around with me constantly. I was so mad that I tried to throw my last SE Asia strength behind India to attack you, but unfortunately he wasn't interested. I made the same offer to Australia, but it didn't really go anywhere given his poor position relative to you. If you'd only stopped worrying about me in SE Asia, I think we'd have had a much better relationship and maybe you could've gotten me to be a better ally in other areas.

---------------------------------

Oh, speaking of social engineering, I definitely stoked the fires of Venezuela solo paranoia constantly. I didn't think he was that big of a threat (though to be completely honest, I think you had a shot if you'd kept playing), but it was in my interest for everyone else to think that, so I kept pushing it. I wanted heat on you in order to take it off of me, especially when I was still a co-leader in SCs.

---------------------------------

I haven't read all of the AARs closely, but there was one other potential China plan that I don't think was mentioned: The China+UK+Australia alliance against Venezuela in the Pacific.

Very late in my SE Asia campaign, after enough time had passed to heal my annoyance with China, there was some talk of sending my remaining UK fleets West while China made a stronger move West along with Australia. We thought if we could get the drop on Venezuela there, then I could start moving South as well.

If I recall, Australia wasn't into the idea and after one or two seasons Venezuela had shored up himself enough that it was going to no longer be a slam dunk plan.
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby marsman57 » 05 Aug 2015, 16:25

Regarding draws in general. I think it's very interesting to see the diplomatic pressure (real or perceived) involved in accepting/rejecting. DIAS is one solution, but I also like secret draws where you don't know who accepted/rejected. Both of those tend to make games last longer I imagine, but it keeps games from coming to a premature conclusion as well (as some have felt this one did).

As I've said before, my read of the situation after the draw proposal #2 was that all included powers claimed to be okay with it. So, I sent out a message to all excluded powers to see if any of them were interested in playing on or if they wanted to hang it up. Every one of them responded they were okay with hanging it up. So, if it was really just me, I didn't want to prolong the inevitable on one hand, and on the other hand, I genuinely hoped that someone would defect from the draw and become a target.
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby VGhost » 05 Aug 2015, 19:32

AardvarkArmy wrote:2) LOL! Yeah, I grabbed French centers.... after holding them in escrow for like 8 years!!! I think UK would have been satisfied with a 8 year opportunity


Ah, but the question I was posing wasn't "would UK have been ok with the opportunity?" I was suggesting that your ultimate plan wouldn't have included UK, and that even if he was useful for a while, you probably would have attacked him again eventually. In the mean time, I didn't want you getting another janissary power.

Now, we both wanted the European double broken up, but you wanted UK on top (because you would have pressure on him, presumably, plus your feud with Germany), while I wanted Germany on top (for similar reasons), and between the four of us we managed to screw it up so that nobody actually attacked.

There's plenty of room to criticize tactics, but I still claim my motives were sincere. Incidentally, if we're criticizing tactics, I had no idea how much you'd put into getting UK to come round: I'm not sure if this was due to your communication, my comprehension, or what. The impression I got (right or wrong) was that a "deal with UK" was a side-project, almost, not a several year effort. If I'd realized (and again this may have been my misreading) that this was your "Plan A", I would have probably communicated differently with UK, because I would have known it was the keystone of your plan. Also a factor here was that I guessed that UK/Germany wouldn't find a line, so the "deal with UK" was in my mind optional even if you did want it to come off - another miscalculation.

marsman57 wrote:REPEATEDLY. I wanted to work with you in SE Asia SO FREAKING BAD, but you would just screw around with me constantly. I was so mad that I tried to throw my last SE Asia strength behind India to attack you, but unfortunately he wasn't interested. I made the same offer to Australia, but it didn't really go anywhere given his poor position relative to you. If you'd only stopped worrying about me in SE Asia, I think we'd have had a much better relationship and maybe you could've gotten me to be a better ally in other areas.


Like I said in my original AAR, a lot of this was because my initial assessment of the map predicted you taking a very different route than you did - and I never really got back "on balance" with you after that. I put India in the "Ally #1" spot early: he wanted Singapore. After I shut Iran back behind the Himalayas and looked at the Pacific again, Australia had a better position to be a 3rd party in our alliance (I don't know if you could/would have made up with India as well).

That included his flank position on Venezuela until that fell apart - frankly I don't remember all the details here: I know I was hoping Australia would focus East instead of West, but I didn't want to give orders directly; later I decided Australia's tactical sense wasn't good enough to sustain a fight and iirc told Venezuela I was fine with him taking the Pacific centers because I was then hoping to draw the defensive wall down the Pacific (which eventually justified my attack on Australia because if there wasn't an attack happening there then he was just sitting on useless centers).
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby AardvarkArmy » 05 Aug 2015, 20:15

GhostEcho wrote: I had no idea how much you'd put into getting UK to come round: I'm not sure if this was due to your communication, my comprehension, or what. The impression I got (right or wrong) was that a "deal with UK" was a side-project, almost, not a several year effort. If I'd realized (and again this may have been my misreading) that this was your "Plan A", I would have probably communicated differently with UK, because I would have known it was the keystone of your plan.


This is an utterly mystifying statement. We had an exchange of MULTIPLE messages spanning more than 10 days. In these messages:

- I portrayed the UK deal as game changing breaking news
- described the fake war plan in great detail
- specified an exact number of builds we believed we could get for UK to pop up in Europe
- specified an exact target date for the attack
- urged you to lay the groundwork for coming in from the east with India and Israel to complete the knock out blow
- even quoted a UK message in which he expressed a personal animus motivating him to turn on Germany

It was a carefully orchestrated plan, spanning 3 seasons, requiring a huge amount of comms and coordination and trust building between UK and I. You were "in the loop" at every stage throughout the process.

UK and I executed perfectly, it was all systems go for launch, and it absolutely would have succeeded.

And, by the way, the immediate impact for UK and i would have been to grow him dramatically and to halt my northward advance. Not exactly a recipe for me to easily "roll over" him later.

But you took it upon yourself to pull the plug.

If you are unsatisfied with the draw that we ended up with, you will find no more decisive crossroads moment than this one to explain how/why we e def up where we did.
SOLOS
ICE&FIRE.1-Martell/EXCALIBUR.1-Angles/EXCALIBUR.2-Scots/EMERALD-Sno/MOD.4-Italy/SENGOKU.1-OdaNobu/S.AMERICA.1-Peru

DRAWS
1930-China/BattleIsleA-Winterfell/S&S-Turkey/WORLD INFL-Venezuela/LECRAE-Dublin/WWIV.2-Cali/IMPERIAL1861.1-Trky/YNGSTWN.1-Grmny/AMERICAS.2-Mex/AFRICAN.2-S.Arabia
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby asudevil » 05 Aug 2015, 21:11

Here is Mouse's AAR. He was Brazi?

I do not want to get too in-depth in my AARs, besides not sure if there is a great deal to say.

The initial plan was to partner up with Venezuela and divide up Peru.

Concerning France - I instinctively do not trust countries that are colony-oriented because they typically have an over-driving desire to connect their estranged supply centers back to their homeland AND they often feel entitled to additional, local supply centers that surpass what is reasonable. Even with these fears, I discussed with France an arrangement of safety for his South American colony if he doesn't try to pursue local lands. Left it at that since there wasn't really more to say.

South Africa had their eye on the Falkland Islands, but that was crazy talk since it would mean death for Brazil. He was talked out of it and an arrangement was made for our two countries to do our “own thing”.

That was how it all began, but it fell apart.

There was miscommunication with Venezuela in the first couple moves. France didn't feel like I was communicating enough with him. South Africa was still looking at the Falkland Islands.

When Venezuela demilitarized their border with France thus freeing them (France) for an all offensive against Brazil and then shortly later supported a French unit, Brazil knew they had to immediately make peace with Peru. In addition South Africa was trying to take the Falkland Islands.

Things did start to pick-up. Brazil repelled South Africa to the point that they felt it was frugal to continue and thus came to an agreement - alliance. Nigeria was fighting a good war against France and was at peace with South Africa. Peru and Brazil were solid and keeping up a good defense against the Venezuelans and French. So it was Peru, Nigeria, Brazil, and South Africa against Venezuela and France.

Then bad things happened. Nigeria, South Africa, and United States quit the game. New players were introduced. The region was in complete upset. Brazil wanted to quit at that point since it was going to be a new game (Brazil sort of gave-up). The end result was South Africa started attacking Nigeria and Brazil. France got a reprieve from what might have been some nasty affairs. Mexico and United States were always sort of duds in the north so not sure if the player change had an affect with Venezuela.

South Africa attacking Brazil weakened their ability to support Peru. Nigeria not being able to go all out against France allowed the French to concentrate more in South America. South Africa also was going to aid in the war against the French and Venezuela by sailing up the western side of South America, but with a new player and change in goals, they abandoned that tactic.

Peru finally fell and upon their death it was only a matter of time until Brazil fell… France, Venezuela, South Africa, and then even Australia sailing around the horn….
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby Antigonos » 05 Aug 2015, 21:26

"AardvarkArmy"
It was a carefully orchestrated plan, spanning 3 seasons, requiring a huge amount of comms and coordination and trust building between UK and I. You were "in the loop" at every stage throughout the process.

UK and I executed perfectly, it was all systems go for launch, and it absolutely would have succeeded.

And, by the way, the immediate impact for UK and i would have been to grow him dramatically and to halt my northward advance. Not exactly a recipe for me to easily "roll over" him later.

But you took it upon yourself to pull the plug.

If you are unsatisfied with the draw that we ended up with, you will find no more decisive crossroads moment than this one to explain how/why we e def up where we did.


AA played a brilliant game but his vision of the game is just that...his vision. Other can and will see various things differently.

Perhaps AA might want to point out the exact turn "Operation Game Changer" was to occur. It seems to me that at any point it would have at best resulted in some real initial UK gains balanced at least in part by my counter moves. Beyond that I would have sent all of my units north and west to fight UK and China and Israel would have been the big beneficiaries and UK would have been one more item on Venezuela's dinner plate. The end result would have been a draw with Venezuela, China, India, Israel and, given his first rate burst of late game play, Nigeria. No doubt eliminating me would have brought great pleasure to AA but it would hardly rank as a game changer of the first magnitude. But it would seem to validate the conclusions and decisions reached separately by me and UK which took us alive and well to the point where UK gambled and lost on his Draw 4 proposal and I took part in the draw.
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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby asudevil » 05 Aug 2015, 21:45

But if both of you guys got eliminated...it very well could have made the board mixed up enough to have a much better solo shot as I believe China and Venezuela DID want a solo....or at least get a much more interesting final result (which would have played out til Christmas)

And Nigeria only REALLY made it to the final draw because he was strong at the right time...if UK/Germany were collapsing "at the right time"...Nigeria would not have built back up into what he was and India/Venezuela probably would have taken him out instead of allowing him to regrow.

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Re: World Influence AAR

Postby fijikilo0 » 05 Aug 2015, 21:50

PERU
Ok, I have come out of my hibernation cave to post my AAR now. AAR and reports in general are not my strong suit...

Alright a quick synopsis first i suppose. I was the leader of Peru started off pretty iffy. I planned to attack Brazil first to solidify my Eastern and southern borders, seemed more logical then splitting Venezuela with Brazil. And at the same time Venezuela as being a master manipulator taking steps to nullify both me and Brazil. Venezuela broke the DMZ and appeared to be cooperating with Brazil. But i still sensed my greatest bet would be to try and keep ties with Venezuela. After i lost the galapagos to Australia thats when things became real bad, i answered Brazils calls to unite against Venezuela but I was pretty much done could not force my way into a comeback so after a few years i became the first casualty in this game.
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