Al-Andalus Spanish Medieval Diplomacy NEEDS ONE MORE

Game with 5 'countries' plus 3 advisors able to work for any nation. Devised by lordelindel and GMd by asudevil. Winner Zarazoga {pjkon)

Re: Al-Andalus Spanish Medieval Diplomacy 4/8

Postby jakofipa » 07 Nov 2014, 01:07

Thanks for the clarification Lordelindel! So if a prince wants a Wazir to order a unit, all he has to do is not assign a move to that unit?

What would happen if the Prince and Wazir order agreeing orders? I hope this would also result in a HOLD, otherwise the Prince could safeguard against the Wazir misdirecting a unit by setting their own order, thus making it hold unless the Wazir behaves!
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Re: Al-Andalus Spanish Medieval Diplomacy 4/8

Postby asudevil » 07 Nov 2014, 02:39

lordelindel wrote:
jakofipa wrote:Also, can the Wazir leave the court of a prince without going to another court directly? E.g. if they know they will be arrested next turn can the abandon the prince without finding a new master?

In order for a Wazir to become a free agent they must have been ARRESTed a Wazir cannot chose to become a free agent. This is to force Wazirs to always be searching for another option to go to if they get the impression they are about to be ARRESTed. By forcing Wazirs to always be conversing with Princes, other than their own, it will increase the paranoia level of the Princes and I think generally make the game more communicative and fun. To reiterate: a Wazir CANNOT become a free agent by choice. To leave a Prince's court that free agent must have a new Prince to run to or their movement will fail.


So if a Wazir tries to leave and the new Prince doesn't take him, he neither gives an order, NOR gets to leave...just irking his current Prince?


Also some new questions from the GM
If the Prince orders all his units then the Wazir can never order a unit because they will double up.

Does the Wazir get gold from the unit the Prince holds (to let the Wazir move) if the Wazir doesn't move him?
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Re: Al-Andalus Spanish Medieval Diplomacy 4/8

Postby Aeschines » 07 Nov 2014, 15:58

jakofipa wrote:Thanks for the clarification Lordelindel! So if a prince wants a Wazir to order a unit, all he has to do is not assign a move to that unit?

What would happen if the Prince and Wazir order agreeing orders? I hope this would also result in a HOLD, otherwise the Prince could safeguard against the Wazir misdirecting a unit by setting their own order, thus making it hold unless the Wazir behaves!

If a Prince and a Wazir both order fleet Barcelona to GoL than the fleet in Barcelona has not received conflicting orders and will do its best to carry them out. HOWEVER, if the Prince did not leave a unit fallow that turn (i.e. Prince in Zaragoza issued orders to Bar, Zar, and Val) than one of those units would auto-hold because the Prince is only allowed to give orders to n-1 (3-1=2) units. In this example, because al three of the Prince's units are on supply centers (just using the starting map), the fleet in Barcelona would hold - because the same formula used to do auto-destroys is used to do auto-holds.

Note that the Prince's inability to issue n orders applies regardless of what kind of order he gives. Thus if a Prince is worried that a Wazir is going to be misdirecting his unit he can give it a conflicting order (thus forcing it to hold) but doing so will force him to leave another one of his units fallow. The end result? Two of the Prince's units hold and the Prince's paranoia just paid the Wazir 2 dinars when they were expecting to get 1 or none.


asudevil wrote:
lordelindel wrote:
jakofipa wrote:Also, can the Wazir leave the court of a prince without going to another court directly? E.g. if they know they will be arrested next turn can the abandon the prince without finding a new master?

In order for a Wazir to become a free agent they must have been ARRESTed a Wazir cannot chose to become a free agent. This is to force Wazirs to always be searching for another option to go to if they get the impression they are about to be ARRESTed. By forcing Wazirs to always be conversing with Princes, other than their own, it will increase the paranoia level of the Princes and I think generally make the game more communicative and fun. To reiterate: a Wazir CANNOT become a free agent by choice. To leave a Prince's court that free agent must have a new Prince to run to or their movement will fail.


So if a Wazir tries to leave and the new Prince doesn't take him, he neither gives an order, NOR gets to leave...just irking his current Prince?

Exactly! Before a Wazir starts packing up his entire household (historically Wazir's were the richest men in Al-Andalus) to move to another court he'd better know they're gonna let him in!

asudevil wrote:Also some new questions from the GM
If the Prince orders all his units then the Wazir can never order a unit because they will double up.

Correct. However, if the Prince's 'all-hold' order was an NMR than it would function like a ARREST. If it was a genuine "all my units hold" order than the Wazir will be paid 1 dinar for each held unit (potentially leapfrogging them to the top of the Wazir leaderboard!).

asudevil wrote:Does the Wazir get gold from the unit the Prince holds (to let the Wazir move) if the Wazir doesn't move him?

Absolutely! This is one of the most common move I expected to see. As one form of recompense (in their negotiation before the Wazir comes to the Prince's court) the Prince might agree to "give" a unit to a Wazir so that the Wazir can pay himself on turns the Prince doesn't need him to move the unit. (NOTE: this is an informal agreement that would not involve the GM in any way, just a deal worked out between the Prince and the Wazir with respect to their orders).


Prince wrote:Okay! So I'll leave the fleet in Barcelona fallow for you. Sound good?

Wazir wrote:Sounds great. I'll message the GM as soon as I get home tonight.

GM wrote:No order issued for fleet Barcelona. It holds. Wazir is paid 1 dinar.

Wazir wrote:Oh no! Oops. My real life totally go in the way. How silly of me.
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Re: Al-Andalus Spanish Medieval Diplomacy 4/8

Postby piezilla » 08 Nov 2014, 03:00

I would be interested in signing up.
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Re: Al-Andalus Spanish Medieval Diplomacy 3/8

Postby Petunia » 08 Nov 2014, 18:32

lordelindel wrote:
asudevil wrote:Princes earn no Dinar. The only time Princes have Dinars is if they arrest their Wazir and they get 1/2 his gold to help bribe another Wazir

100% correct.


lordelindel wrote:
Morg wrote:Are there ways for a prince to pay a Wazir without holding a unit and besides arresting the previous Wazir?


asudevil wrote:Not to the best of my knowledge...unless Lindal says something

There is no way for a Prince to pay a Wazir without holding a unit or having dinars from arresting a previous Wazir.


lordelindel wrote:
Morg wrote:Can a Prince and Wazir haggle over price (for example can a Wazir say, "I'll switch sides and join you, but only if you'll pay me double"?)?


asudevil wrote:No

The only haggling can be over what units the Prince will hold to get the Wazir to come. The production of new dinars is a fixed number.

These answers contradict each other. Following an ARREST, a Prince has dinar. Is there a mechanism for a Prince to transfer these dinar to a Wazir or not?
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Re: Al-Andalus Spanish Medieval Diplomacy 4/8

Postby asudevil » 08 Nov 2014, 19:01

As soon as the prince hires a new Wazir...all the gold he has from the prior Wazir's arrest IMMEDIATELY goes to the new Wazir...non-optional
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Re: Al-Andalus Spanish Medieval Diplomacy 4/8

Postby piezilla » 08 Nov 2014, 19:46

I would prefer 3/1/1 but I am open to 4/2/2.
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Re: Al-Andalus Spanish Medieval Diplomacy 4/8

Postby fedorbear » 08 Nov 2014, 21:18

I would like to play this game!
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Re: Al-Andalus Spanish Medieval Diplomacy 5/8

Postby Aeschines » 09 Nov 2014, 02:25

Hey all! I've updated the rules with the clarifications we've discussed here in the thread and via PM here:
DEFINITIVE RULES FOR AL-ANDALUS

Additionally, I wanted to gauge everyone's interest in playing with the option General-Wazir rules. Someone pointed out that Wazirs will have less to do in the late-game and this optional rule set will keep them involved right up to the end I think. The optional rules are in the Definitive Rules but I'll post them here for your immediate perusal:

OPTIONAL RULE: WAZIR-GENERALS
  • In any move season, other than the move season in which the Wazir was hired, a Prince may appoint their Wazir general of one of that Prince's units
  • A Wazir who is a general of a unit has complete control over that unit in every season but loses the ability to issue orders to any other units
    -The Prince can issue orders to all of their remaining units
  • A unit with a general attacks at 1.5 strength (but defends and supports with single strength)
  • Territory captured by a Wazir-General counts towards the Wazir's Prince's SC count
  • A Wazir-General can still plunder/be arrested like normal
    -The unit of the Wazir-General HOLDs with the rest of the Prince's units for that turn in either scenario
  • If a Wazir leaves their Prince for any reason (voluntarily or not) SCs captured by the Wazir-General's unit remains under the control of the Wazir
    -If the Wazir becomes a free-agent the Wazir-General retains control of their generaled-unit so long as the Wazir has at least 1 SC
    -If a Wazir-General joins a different Prince's court any territory controlled by the Wazir-General is transferred to the new Prince (i.e. counts towards that Prince's SC total and allows that Prince to build additional units)
  • A Wazir-General cannot build any units
    -The Wazir-General continues to control their unit (and that unit continues to count against whichever Prince they work for's unit total) until that unit is destroyed, the Wazir runs out of SCs (and is a free-agent), or they voluntarily give up command (and cede that unit and all their territory to whatever Prince they currently work for)
    -The Wazir’s unit may be destroyed by a Prince like any other unit if that Prince has destroys in the Winter adjustments (in which case the Wazir’s land immediately goes to that Prince)
Last edited by Aeschines on 09 Nov 2014, 17:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Al-Andalus Spanish Medieval Diplomacy 5/8

Postby asudevil » 09 Nov 2014, 02:52

lordelindel wrote:
OPTIONAL RULE: WAZIR-GENERALS
  • If a Wazir leaves their Prince for any reason (voluntarily or not) SCs captured by the Wazir-General's unit remains under the control of the Wazir


I think if the Wazir was arrested, they should not be able to keep their unit...if they are arrested they didn't see it coming, so they were arrested for "treason" and their unit would return to the prince I would think

-If the Wazir becomes a free-agent the Wazir-General retains control of their generaled-unit so long as the Wazir has at least 1 SC
-If a Wazir-General joins a different Prince's court any territory controlled by the Wazir-General is transferred to the new Prince (i.e. counts towards that Prince's SC total and allows that Prince to build additional units)
  • A Wazir-General cannot build any units
    -The Wazir-General continues to control their unit (and that unit continues to count against whichever Prince they work for's unit total) until that unit is destroyed, the Wazir runs out of SCs (and is a free-agent), or they voluntarily give up command (and cede that unit and all their territory to whatever Prince they currently work for)


  • Ok, so all of this brings up a TON of questions...there would be more units than SC's under this theory since the SC that the Wazir captured would be added to the new Prince (letting him build more units)...BUT also he is still count against the original prince? What if the old prince captures the old SC's that the Wazir had captured...What if the Wazir goes neutral...what color do the SC's become.
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