PDVersaillesT Poll; Resolved: Turn off 1st Turn NMR Protect

TD: sinnybee; Assistant TD: mr bump

Moderator: sinnybee

Versailles Tournament: Leave 1st Turn NMR Protect On?

Poll ended at 14 Mar 2014, 03:10

Yes, I want a replacement to fill in for any player who NMRs their first turn.
10
42%
No, I don't want Versailles Tournament games to use 1st Turn NMR Protect.
14
58%
 
Total votes : 24

PDVersaillesT Poll; Resolved: Turn off 1st Turn NMR Protect

Postby sinnybee » 11 Mar 2014, 03:10

Please only vote in this poll if you've been officially accepted onto the Versailles Tournament roster here, which currently includes 62 players.

Cons and pros:
socratease wrote:...turning off 1st turn NMR protection helps the tournament because it

1. guarantees a timely start to all games,
a) useful for keeping the tournament moving along / minimizing tournament length,

A valid reason, though I believe outweighed by a desire to have a high level of competition.

socratease wrote: b) addresses a big issue for Round 1 Games A (2/1/1) since NMR reset means a delay of 6 days minimum for that start,
2. therefore minimizes overlap of simultaneous games A / B during their 'heavy negotiation' periods (especially Spring 2nd year),

A valid reason, but why not a delay of 5-6 days--1-2 days to get players to join and confirm into a new game (including the replacement) plus the double length turn of 4 days?

socratease wrote:3. provides an additional source of NMRs (though we hope those are rare) which the OP currently posits as one of the tie-breakers.

No... lol... no. Plus, I already PMed you about how unlikely a tie would be and how the tie-breaking section would likely be changed.

I personally like playing with 1st Turn NMR Protect turned off, but the reason for that is because I can generally find a way for the NMR of someone else to work to my advantage... also, even if "No" is the majority, why should I change and flip off 1st turn NMR protect, when it helps those most likely to vote here--those who keep up with things and who are very unlikely to NMR their first turn?

This is the biggest tournament in the over 6 year history of playdiplomacy.com... I want there to be a high level of competition here. A player who NMRs in the very first turn generally turns out to play a less effective game.

Turning off 1st turn NMR protect would make my job a bit easier, perhaps, but rick.leeds has a tested and tried pattern of effectiveness for 1st turn NMR protect, as do almost all GMs... do we really want to stray off that path?

Also, if the player isn't kicked out after their 1st turn NMR, I may still have to deal with them later, as they might get an auto-surrender for future NMRs.
Gold Classicist since 1-11-11
FT Asst GM of 35 player WWIV Aug 2011-Feb 2012
#1 ranked player of playdip early 2013
4th highest forum karma count at Apr 2013 ending (behind Craw, Dipsy, and Rick)
Tournament Director of the 31 game PDVT Feb-Dec 2014, the first playdip tourney with over 100 sign-ups
User avatar
sinnybee
 
Posts: 5716
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 07:01
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1332)
All-game rating: (1467)
Timezone: GMT-7

Re: Versailles Tournament: Leave 1st Turn NMR Protect On?

Postby numberwang1 » 11 Mar 2014, 03:50

If you pre-screened all the players, why should we have protection on? Saves lots of time and if people are as likely to NMR on the first turn as any other, and the players have been screened for low NMR and low surrenders. If people want in on the tourney they can make the minuscule effort to not NMR in spring of 1901, and considering they are not the usual suspects it probably will not be a problem anyway, right?

And I think the overlap between games thing is a really valid point as well. Early negotiating is of the utmost importance, why make us all (players a game with an NMR) pay the price of beginning two games at once when one fool NMR's? It also hurts players in games with players in games with NMRs, because they will have weak opponents/allies. On his/her head be it I say! Problem players should lose early and likely will anyway, if they are not removed by you via NMR protection, which inhibits negotiations of all players, they will be removed via natural selection. Let the problem resolve itself!
Platinum Member of the Classicists
User avatar
numberwang1
 
Posts: 436
Joined: 08 Dec 2013, 01:04
Location: chicago
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1187)
All-game rating: (1329)
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: Versailles Tournament: Leave 1st Turn NMR Protect On?

Postby GhostEcho » 11 Mar 2014, 04:09

I don't want to play a full game with a player who can't even be bothered to put in orders for the first season. This is literally the first thing I do in 90% of the games I play, and it takes about 5 seconds once you get the email saying your game has started. With the double-length first turns, there's no reason you can't at least log in once in, say, 4 days, spend a few seconds putting in orders, and not NMR out - even if you do nothing else the whole tournament.

Restarting any games where this happens will be a nuisance, but then again I also don't expect it to happen given the player screening - and it's still less of a nuisance than having the game thrown out of balance from the start.

In an ordinary game, I'd roll with it and try to use it to get an advantage, but in a game for a tournament I want to know everyone I'm playing is taking it seriously.
"When you absolutely don't know what to do any more, then it's time to panic." - Johann van der Wiel
"I'm not panicking, I'm watching you panic. It's more entertaining." - Elli Quinn
"[Diplomacy:] No dice or chance. Just calculated insincerity." - Counter Trap
User avatar
GhostEcho
Premium Member
 
Posts: 1807
Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 04:56
Location: Baltimore
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1013
All-game rating: 973
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Versailles Tournament: Leave 1st Turn NMR Protect On?

Postby socratease » 11 Mar 2014, 05:00

GhostEcho wrote:I don't want to play a full game with a player who can't even be bothered to put in orders for the first season. This is literally the first thing I do in 90% of the games I play, and it takes about 5 seconds once you get the email saying your game has started. With the double-length first turns, there's no reason you can't at least log in once in, say, 4 days, spend a few seconds putting in orders, and not NMR out - even if you do nothing else the whole tournament.

To be fair, the playdip connection has been for me and a number of others sometimes quite spotty, and in the last game I started I had to wait 5-20 seconds between each click for the system to recognize I had chosen Unit, MOVE, Province. The sequential point-and-click interface for entering orders has of late resulted in incorrect or non-entered orders. One Classicist recently resigned in frustration over his non-orders and resulting NMRs, which used to never happen because he was conscientious as you and I both prefer. He thought he had entered them.

In addition, myself and many others have picked up "surrendered" countries after not one but TWO 1901 NMRs and done just fine with them. Spring 1901 is probably the least damaging NMR possible for a game and certainly not a game-changer if the player subsequently keeps on the ball.


GhostEcho wrote:Restarting any games where this happens will be a nuisance, but then again I also don't expect it to happen given the player screening - and it's still less of a nuisance than having the game thrown out of balance from the start.

Actually much more than a nuisance. Starting two regular games simultaneously means heavy negotiations with 12 other powers during the 1st three critical seasons, pretty demanding if you have a real life. In Versailles, it means negotiating simultaneously with 24 other powers. Also, with 2/1/1 Game A deadlines, 4+4=8 days are lost if NMR reset kicks in, and your Game A might actually start AFTER Game B.

My goal is the highest quality of play possible. Keeping a rarely-NMRing serious player in the game who has already done the diplomatic pre-game heavy lifting but who, for RL or whatever reason NMRed in Spring 1931, is more likely to provide that high quality for the game.


GhostEcho wrote:In an ordinary game, I'd roll with it and try to use it to get an advantage, but in a game for a tournament I want to know everyone I'm playing is taking it seriously.


We completely agree here. I suspect the screening has already weeded out non-serious players, and anyone who NMRs will pick up the fumbled ball and keep running.
User avatar
socratease
 
Posts: 467
Joined: 26 Aug 2013, 23:31
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1715)
All-game rating: (1958)
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: Versailles Tournament: Leave 1st Turn NMR Protect On?

Postby NamelessNate » 11 Mar 2014, 05:22

Wouldn't a first turn NMR ruin the point of Versailles and reveal that player's minor? If his major doesn't move then his minor surely won't, revealing to the rest of the game a major-minor team that is to my understanding to be kept in anonymity (at least past the first year).
User avatar
NamelessNate
 
Posts: 22
Joined: 16 Jun 2013, 19:21
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1024)
All-game rating: (1000)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Versailles Tournament: Leave 1st Turn NMR Protect On?

Postby socratease » 11 Mar 2014, 05:37

sinnybee wrote:
socratease wrote:3. provides an additional source of NMRs (though we hope those are rare) which the OP currently posits as one of the tie-breakers.

No... lol... no. Plus, I already PMed you about how unlikely a tie would be and how the tie-breaking section would likely be changed.


The PM said
sinnybee wrote: the only real chance of a tie that needs resolution, is between spot 28 and 29. The tie-breaker section was waiting on the scoring system too.

When the tie-breakers are decided, then if NMRs will no longer play a role, reason 3 is inapplicable.

sinnybee wrote:I personally like playing with 1st Turn NMR Protect turned off, but the reason for that is because I can generally find a way for the NMR of someone else to work to my advantage... also, even if "No" is the majority, why should I change and flip off 1st turn NMR protect, when it helps those most likely to vote here--those who keep up with things and who are very unlikely to NMR their first turn?


First-turn NMR-protect penalizes, not helps, those who did all the negotiating and order-entering work. With a new player, much of that time and energy may have to be expended all over again, not to mention the likely overlap with Game B heavy-negotiation period.

sinnybee wrote:This is the biggest tournament in the over 6 year history of playdiplomacy.com... I want there to be a high level of competition here. A player who NMRs in the very first turn generally turns out to play a less effective game.


I too want a high level of competition, and I expect I'll see it. We do appreciate the pre-screening work you've done to help ensure that.

Players with middle-to-low rankings often (but not always!) play a less effective game, and a number are in this tournament. Which gives better chance of a competitive game, a 1300+ ranked player who happens to NMR once, or a 970 ranked player who doesn't? Answer: you don't know. As the saying goes, "THAT'S... why they play the game."

sinnybee wrote:Turning off 1st turn NMR protect would make my job a bit easier, perhaps, but rick.leeds has a tested and tried pattern of effectiveness for 1st turn NMR protect, as do almost all GMs... do we really want to stray off that path?

"What do you mean 'we'?"
- Costello to Abbott

sinnybee wrote:Also, if the player isn't kicked out after their 1st turn NMR, I may still have to deal with them later, as they might get an auto-surrender for future NMRs.

You may have a very valid concern there. I have no idea what the relationship is, in actually measured statistics, between those who NMR first turn and then double-NMR and auto-surrender even though their general NMR rates are low. Probably low, but that's a guess and not even an informed one. Any info on that available?

Which brings us to the question: If someone surrenders in the tournament, will they be replaced if a replacement is willing?
User avatar
socratease
 
Posts: 467
Joined: 26 Aug 2013, 23:31
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1715)
All-game rating: (1958)
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: Versailles Tournament: Leave 1st Turn NMR Protect On?

Postby McGiles » 11 Mar 2014, 08:32

numberwang1 wrote:If you pre-screened all the players, why should we have protection on?


I think this argument is a moot argument. Suppose the pre-screening was very successful and no one NMR's first turn. Then whether or not there's 1st turn NMR protection is irrelevant. If someone who is reliable and NMR's for a valid reason, then they should have already told sinnybee or mr bump, as that's the agreement everyone confirms in the PM sinny sent out to participants. If a player unexpectedly and suddenly NMR's with little to no chance to give forward notice, then they can PM sinny as stated in the OP:

If the NMRing player wants to remain in the tournament and thinks that they have a "really good excuse", they will have to send me a private message informing me of such. If I believe that their excuse is valid, then the game will restart with the same seven players


If someone wants to say "well they passed the screening, so there should not be NMR's in the first place," then what if there is? Arguing that there will be a lot less likely of NMR's is not a reason for or against NMR protection. This discussion should be centered on "what if there is a first turn NMR, should they be allowed to stay in the game?" Giving arguments based on "competitiveness," amount of re-negotiation, etc are all valid points to answer this question. An answer saying "well they passed the screening" becomes moot if they did NMR.

Personally I feel NMR protection is an okay thing to have in this tournament. If someone NMR's the very first turn with extended deadlines, then they are likely to NMR again and it would be better to replace them while their position isn't in a helpless spot.
There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand hexadecimal, and F the rest...
User avatar
McGiles
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 01 Jan 2014, 01:58
Location: Behind You!
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (943)
All-game rating: (1074)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Versailles Tournament: Leave 1st Turn NMR Protect On?

Postby sinnybee » 11 Mar 2014, 19:23

The vote is close!
I am okay with turning off 1st Turn NMR Protect, there are some good reasons to turn it off.
I'm a firm believer of letting majority vote rule, if it's something that can be argued either way.
So, we'll wait to see how things end up until the poll closes.

If I get a chance, I might PM a turn reminder about half-way through the first (double-length) turn, to suggest that players at least put in provisional orders, if they haven't already.
If no one NMRs the first turn, that would be so awesome.
Gold Classicist since 1-11-11
FT Asst GM of 35 player WWIV Aug 2011-Feb 2012
#1 ranked player of playdip early 2013
4th highest forum karma count at Apr 2013 ending (behind Craw, Dipsy, and Rick)
Tournament Director of the 31 game PDVT Feb-Dec 2014, the first playdip tourney with over 100 sign-ups
User avatar
sinnybee
 
Posts: 5716
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 07:01
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1332)
All-game rating: (1467)
Timezone: GMT-7

Re: Versailles Tournament: Leave 1st Turn NMR Protect On?

Postby numberwang1 » 11 Mar 2014, 19:40

socratease wrote:First-turn NMR-protect penalizes, not helps, those who did all the negotiating and order-entering work. With a new player, much of that time and energy may have to be expended all over again, not to mention the likely overlap with Game B heavy-negotiation period.


Exactly. Everyone who doesnt NMR ends up screwed by the protection when the NMR itself may or may not damage them at all. I have yet to see a valid enough counterpoint to this (which I see as the best argument against as someone who is really really busy) that justifies having NMR protection turned on. Vote no!
Platinum Member of the Classicists
User avatar
numberwang1
 
Posts: 436
Joined: 08 Dec 2013, 01:04
Location: chicago
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1187)
All-game rating: (1329)
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: Versailles Tournament: Leave 1st Turn NMR Protect On?

Postby sinnybee » 12 Mar 2014, 09:33

numberwang1 wrote:Everyone who doesnt NMR ends up screwed by the protection when the NMR itself may or may not damage them at all. I have yet to see a valid enough counterpoint to this (which I see as the best argument against as someone who is really really busy) that justifies having NMR protection turned on. Vote no!

If the goal is to not inconvenience players, then yeah, but if the goal is to have a very full and competitive tournament, NMR protect is the way to go.
Gold Classicist since 1-11-11
FT Asst GM of 35 player WWIV Aug 2011-Feb 2012
#1 ranked player of playdip early 2013
4th highest forum karma count at Apr 2013 ending (behind Craw, Dipsy, and Rick)
Tournament Director of the 31 game PDVT Feb-Dec 2014, the first playdip tourney with over 100 sign-ups
User avatar
sinnybee
 
Posts: 5716
Joined: 03 Sep 2010, 07:01
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1332)
All-game rating: (1467)
Timezone: GMT-7

Next

Return to PlayDip Versailles Tournament

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest