Kamikaze: Is it allowed to lose on purpose?

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Kamikaze: Is it allowed to lose on purpose?

Postby Haudegen123 » 06 Feb 2018, 09:11

Hello everybody,

I hope this is the right forum to pose the following question:

According to the rules, "players must enter a game aiming to get the best possible result from the game." But is it allowed to stay in the game without aiming to get the best possible result from the game? Is it permissible to help one power to win while losing on purpose?

In one game I am participating (139411) a player gave up without formally surrendering. He doesn't only stay passive (NMRs) but actively helps one nation to win by giving this nation all bases and attacking the other nations so as to halt their advances. The player openly admited in several messages to all players that he wants to lose the game. This is to be differentiated from helping one power in form of an alliance in order to receive a favor from the helped nation.

The Kamikaze player takes part of the fun away that we other players have because it is quite difficult to win against one nation that is helped by a Kamikaze power.

If it is not allowed to stay in a game without aiming to get the best possible result from the game, what can I do to report the player?

Thank you for you help,
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Re: Kamikaze: Is it allowed to lose on purpose?

Postby condude1 » 06 Feb 2018, 09:18

It is completely legal to kingmake - although the threat is much more valuable than the execution IMO. This is the reason you have to be careful not to piss off critical little powers, if someone think they're lost no matter what, the least they can do is get revenge on the players who put them in that situation.
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Re: Kamikaze: Is it allowed to lose on purpose?

Postby Nanook » 06 Feb 2018, 09:19

Provided that they're making this decision based on in game stuff (i.e., not because it's their brother, or a different out of game reason), then yes, kamikazi-ing is perfectly legal.
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Re: Kamikaze: Is it allowed to lose on purpose?

Postby Haudegen123 » 06 Feb 2018, 09:25

Thank you for your quick answers. Well noted.
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Re: Kamikaze: Is it allowed to lose on purpose?

Postby BlueBorjigin » 06 Feb 2018, 09:32

It's possible - in fact, frequent - to find yourself in a position where you're screwed - you don't have enough units to defend yourself, you're being attacked by one or more powers that won't listen to you even though you've tried to offer them mutually beneficial peace deals, and there are no other powers that are willing or able to help you. In some of these situations, as time passes opportunities do open up for you to either strike at some undefended position, or to make a deal. In other of these situations, no opportunities ever present themselves, and you're guaranteed to die - it's just a slow process for your last SCs to be taken and for your death to be 'official'.

What do you do in that second scenario? It's a rough - and weird - situation to be in. Do you defend against the guy who's attacking for from the west, so that the guy attacking you from the east gets to walk right into your lands, or do you defend the east, and leave your west vulnerable? Do you try to defend both, so that none of your neighbours get an unfair advantage, but that means your units are spread too thin and you don't effectively defend anything? Do you suicide into your neighbour with the highest SC count, so that at least in your death you can have done something to slow down a solo attempt? Do you suicide into the guy you dislike the least? Some options are better sportsmanship than others, but as long as you don't NMR/auto-surrender, nothing's against the rules.
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Re: Kamikaze: Is it allowed to lose on purpose?

Postby Nanook » 06 Feb 2018, 09:34

I should also add--if one player has a significant history (3-5+ games) of throwing to one specific player, then that would be something you should report as that would be evidence of possible metagaming. But if it's an isolated incident, based on in-game decision making, they're well within their rights.
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Re: Kamikaze: Is it allowed to lose on purpose?

Postby springbutt46 » 06 Feb 2018, 19:28

I don't believe there is anything specific in the rules that prohibits a person from kingmaking for "out of game" reasons Nanook.
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Re: Kamikaze: Is it allowed to lose on purpose?

Postby Nanook » 06 Feb 2018, 20:40

springbutt46 wrote:I don't believe there is anything specific in the rules that prohibits a person from kingmaking for "out of game" reasons Nanook.

In Diplomacy rules, no. For the site rules though, yeah, there is. If it's because you're tired of the game, or don't want to play, that's fine. If it's because the person you're kingmaking is your coworker and they offered you a cookie to do it, that's a violation of site rules.
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Re: Kamikaze: Is it allowed to lose on purpose?

Postby Strategus » 06 Feb 2018, 21:47

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
springbutt46 wrote:I don't believe there is anything specific in the rules that prohibits a person from kingmaking for "out of game" reasons Nanook.

In Diplomacy rules, no. For the site rules though, yeah, there is. If it's because you're tired of the game, or don't want to play, that's fine. If it's because the person you're kingmaking is your coworker and they offered you a cookie to do it, that's a violation of site rules.

Yeah! That would be ridiculous to king make for a cookie. I would demand at least two. With chocolate chips.
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Re: Kamikaze: Is it allowed to lose on purpose?

Postby gareth66 » 07 Feb 2018, 01:03

springbutt46 wrote:I don't believe there is anything specific in the rules that prohibits a person from kingmaking for "out of game" reasons Nanook.


It is a clear violation of site metagaming rules to base ANY in-game decision on out-of-game factors where that decision is purposefully beneficial to a particular in-game player (or purposely disadvantageous to a particular in-game player) for out-of-game reasons.
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