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Re: Multiple Crime Families

PostPosted: 10 Dec 2017, 17:58
by RedSun
I have a suggestion:

11 players with 4 scum
7 townies
2 red scum
2 blue scum

The red and blue scum know who are in the rival crime organization but they can't kill each other.

They want to influence the town to NK the other crime organization. When one crime organization is wiped out then the one alive unlocks an NK ability which neither organization has at the beginning.

Would this work?

No NK prevents a mass slaughter of townies and the crime organizations need to push for the other organizations death without revealing that they know who the other team is because then they reveal themselves as a crime group.

If we had more than 11 players we'd just add townies

Re: Multiple Crime Families

PostPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 06:42
by condude1
RedSun wrote:I have a suggestion:

11 players with 4 scum
7 townies
2 red scum
2 blue scum

The red and blue scum know who are in the rival crime organization but they can't kill each other.

They want to influence the town to NK the other crime organization. When one crime organization is wiped out then the one alive unlocks an NK ability which neither organization has at the beginning.

Would this work?

No NK prevents a mass slaughter of townies and the crime organizations need to push for the other organizations death without revealing that they know who the other team is because then they reveal themselves as a crime group.

If we had more than 11 players we'd just add townies


This opens up a whole can of worms with the game being spoiled though. Say I'm the last one in my faction, and about to be lynched. I just reveal that I'm the last red mafioso, and start bargaining for my life in exchange for outting the blue mafiosi.

There could be a rule that they can't reveal, but I hate gag orders like that, and personally would never run that, just because it's too hard to enforce.

Re: Multiple Crime Families

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 01:20
by RedSun
condude1 wrote:
RedSun wrote:I have a suggestion:

11 players with 4 scum
7 townies
2 red scum
2 blue scum

The red and blue scum know who are in the rival crime organization but they can't kill each other.

They want to influence the town to NK the other crime organization. When one crime organization is wiped out then the one alive unlocks an NK ability which neither organization has at the beginning.

Would this work?

No NK prevents a mass slaughter of townies and the crime organizations need to push for the other organizations death without revealing that they know who the other team is because then they reveal themselves as a crime group.

If we had more than 11 players we'd just add townies


This opens up a whole can of worms with the game being spoiled though. Say I'm the last one in my faction, and about to be lynched. I just reveal that I'm the last red mafioso, and start bargaining for my life in exchange for outting the blue mafiosi.

There could be a rule that they can't reveal, but I hate gag orders like that, and personally would never run that, just because it's too hard to enforce.


If there were 3 teams Town, Red and Blue and only 1 team could win that means Town can't spare the lives of any mafia so bargaining for your life wouldn't work.
Also in the case of no town being left and both mafia teams are alive with the same number of players (if 1 team has 2 and the other 1 then the 2 person team wins) then it's a 3 way loss as draws will be prohibited.
That'll incentivize the mafia to try to push the town to execute the other mafia team instead of just staying alive.

Any other can of worms you can point out I should look into?

Re: Multiple Crime Families

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 01:54
by mhsmith0
There's a substantial risk of kingmaking in that setup since wolves know each other.

There's also a substantial risk of town losing due to night kills almost alone...

7/2/2
redscum lynch -> 7/1/2
two townies are shot -> 5/1/2

bluescum lynch -> 7/1/1
two townies are shot -> 3/1/1

redscum lynch -> 3/0/1
townie shot -> 2/0/1 -> 3 man lylo

So town can just BARELY guarantee a win given perfect lynching, which seems kind of mechanically rough.

So basically you have the anti-wolf ability to throw the game to the town because you need other faction dead
And you have the anti-town numbers distribution

idk, I don't really think that setup really works that well *shrugs*

Re: Multiple Crime Families

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 01:54
by Parabellum
RedSun wrote:
condude1 wrote:
RedSun wrote:I have a suggestion:

11 players with 4 scum
7 townies
2 red scum
2 blue scum

The red and blue scum know who are in the rival crime organization but they can't kill each other.

They want to influence the town to NK the other crime organization. When one crime organization is wiped out then the one alive unlocks an NK ability which neither organization has at the beginning.

Would this work?

No NK prevents a mass slaughter of townies and the crime organizations need to push for the other organizations death without revealing that they know who the other team is because then they reveal themselves as a crime group.

If we had more than 11 players we'd just add townies


This opens up a whole can of worms with the game being spoiled though. Say I'm the last one in my faction, and about to be lynched. I just reveal that I'm the last red mafioso, and start bargaining for my life in exchange for outting the blue mafiosi.

There could be a rule that they can't reveal, but I hate gag orders like that, and personally would never run that, just because it's too hard to enforce.


If there were 3 teams Town, Red and Blue and only 1 team could win that means Town can't spare the lives of any mafia so bargaining for your life wouldn't work.
Also in the case of no town being left and both mafia teams are alive with the same number of players (if 1 team has 2 and the other 1 then the 2 person team wins) then it's a 3 way loss as draws will be prohibited.
That'll incentivize the mafia to try to push the town to execute the other mafia team instead of just staying alive.

Any other can of worms you can point out I should look into?


Yeah, Condude, how does that bargain work? It would just hand the game to town, it wouldn't help the last remaining team member win. I don't really see how that breaks the game, it just seems like kingmaking. Just part of the game.

?

Re: Multiple Crime Families

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 01:55
by Parabellum
mhsmith0 wrote:There's a substantial risk of kingmaking in that setup since wolves know each other.

There's also a substantial risk of town losing due to night kills almost alone...

7/2/2
redscum lynch -> 7/1/2
two townies are shot -> 5/1/2

bluescum lynch -> 7/1/1
two townies are shot -> 3/1/1

redscum lynch -> 3/0/1
townie shot -> 2/0/1 -> 3 man lylo

So town can just BARELY guarantee a win given perfect lynching, which seems kind of mechanically rough.

So basically you have the anti-wolf ability to throw the game to the town because you need other faction dead
And you have the anti-town numbers distribution

idk, I don't really think that setup really works that well *shrugs*


Part of Red's idea was that there is no night-kill until one of the families is eliminated.

What if the mafiosi don't know who's on the other team?

Re: Multiple Crime Families

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 01:57
by mhsmith0
I'll note, as a point of comparison, that fire and ice mafia (or positive/negative, effectively the same thing) on MS is ballpark balanced:

9/2/2
8 vanilla townies
1 doctor

2 fire mafia
2 ice mafia

if fire and ice mafia target same slot, then there is no kill

I suspect that outside MS you can probably nerf town a bit to hit proper balance, but you can make a pretty decently balanced setup like that where you have reasonable risk of cross-kills (one of the inherently anti-swing aspect of multiball, as scum factions are somewhat incentivized to shoot at the faction that's winning), as well as a setup that still guarantees that perfect lynching always = town win, and usually with some amount of room to spare.

Re: Multiple Crime Families

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 01:58
by RedSun
mhsmith0 wrote:There's a substantial risk of kingmaking in that setup since wolves know each other.

There's also a substantial risk of town losing due to night kills almost alone...

7/2/2
redscum lynch -> 7/1/2
two townies are shot -> 5/1/2

bluescum lynch -> 7/1/1
two townies are shot -> 3/1/1

redscum lynch -> 3/0/1
townie shot -> 2/0/1 -> 3 man lylo

So town can just BARELY guarantee a win given perfect lynching, which seems kind of mechanically rough.

So basically you have the anti-wolf ability to throw the game to the town because you need other faction dead
And you have the anti-town numbers distribution

idk, I don't really think that setup really works that well *shrugs*


I realized that, thats why I said there is no NK until one scum team is eliminated.
That puts more power in the town's hands.

Re: Multiple Crime Families

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 02:02
by mhsmith0
Ok I'd missed that. That might almost make it too tiwnsided as you're guaranteed first night skipped and almost always skip at least night 2

Re: Multiple Crime Families

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 02:05
by RedSun
Parabellum wrote:
mhsmith0 wrote:There's a substantial risk of kingmaking in that setup since wolves know each other.

There's also a substantial risk of town losing due to night kills almost alone...

7/2/2
redscum lynch -> 7/1/2
two townies are shot -> 5/1/2

bluescum lynch -> 7/1/1
two townies are shot -> 3/1/1

redscum lynch -> 3/0/1
townie shot -> 2/0/1 -> 3 man lylo

So town can just BARELY guarantee a win given perfect lynching, which seems kind of mechanically rough.

So basically you have the anti-wolf ability to throw the game to the town because you need other faction dead
And you have the anti-town numbers distribution

idk, I don't really think that setup really works that well *shrugs*


Part of Red's idea was that there is no night-kill until one of the families is eliminated.

What if the mafiosi don't know who's on the other team?


Maybe I could have it so both scum teams have a leader and a follower. The leader can investigate one other player each night to find out if they are opposing scum or town. If the leader dies the follower assumes his position. This prevents a scum team to reveal one member and out both of their enemies as they won't have all the info at the beginning