The League of Cairo

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Re: The League of Cairo

Postby Zander » 16 Oct 2018, 02:10

Subotai45 wrote:While we always stand in solidarity with the Space Comrades, the VSFSR is not imposing such drastic commercial isolation, being quite attached to our traditional dominance in the arms trade and the prosperity it brings us. However, while we have come to expect this lack of integrity from the Terrans, we continue to be disappointed. Rather than raise a large conventional army with the claim it will combat terrorism (which, as our African socialist brethren have rightly pointed out, is generally ineffective - not sure how your tankers would shoot down an asteroid, or how a large conventional force will hunt them down in their hidey-holes) just admit you're setting up the processes to fight the Universal People's Federation, which as the newest embodiment of the Venusian civilization-state, is the sole extrasolar threat that Mobius and their lackeys have given a rip about for untold centuries.

We do not think you are so foolish as to think that this is a viable plan to combat terrorism - don't insult us by thinking we won't see through your transparent attempt to hide your intent. We have yet no evidence that the attack was not, in fact, committed by a Terran terrorist organization, such as Liberation, the largest, deadliest, and most long-lasting terrorist organization the world has ever known.


Mobius applauds the wisdom of the VSFRS in not abandoning some of the worlds' largest markets.

We assure the VSRS that such activities are not meant as a slight against them. After all, your allies and comrades the Mattopians are on our council. We simply believe that 1. if this threat is something we can stop through regular policing action, we need to be ready. And 2. if it isn't, then shifting around these troops and further committing to joint-Cairo action will prepare our organisation to fight in whatever way we have to.

While we do not recognize Liberation as a terran-based organisation, they are certainly on our suspect list. However, this attack does not seem to fall under their Modus operandi. They tend to be a bit more, errr, flamboyant. They also tend to have some clear political motivation, a motivation which is advertised through a rather substantial propaganda arm. They then use this propaganda to establish more cells. This attack was done silently and deliberately with no fanfare.

By the way, would the Venusians mind helping the Mobians in our investigation of this terrible crime? It's a bit surprising that the ever paranoid Venus doesn't seem to care about investigating the folks who just dropped a moon on someone.
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Re: The League of Cairo

Postby Constantine072 » 16 Oct 2018, 02:42

Cooperative signals their official desire to join the Cairo
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Re: The League of Cairo

Postby Subotai45 » 16 Oct 2018, 03:27

some fish wrote:Mobius applauds the wisdom of the VSFRS in not abandoning some of the worlds' largest markets.

We assure the VSRS that such activities are not meant as a slight against them. After all, your allies and comrades the Mattopians are on our council. We simply believe that 1. if this threat is something we can stop through regular policing action, we need to be ready. And 2. if it isn't, then shifting around these troops and further committing to joint-Cairo action will prepare our organisation to fight in whatever way we have to.

While we do not recognize Liberation as a terran-based organisation, they are certainly on our suspect list. However, this attack does not seem to fall under their Modus operandi. They tend to be a bit more, errr, flamboyant. They also tend to have some clear political motivation, a motivation which is advertised through a rather substantial propaganda arm. They then use this propaganda to establish more cells. This attack was done silently and deliberately with no fanfare.

By the way, would the Venusians mind helping the Mobians in our investigation of this terrible crime? It's a bit surprising that the ever paranoid Venus doesn't seem to care about investigating the folks who just dropped a moon on someone.


We care more for the plight of the isolated commune, suffering under capitalist oppression in the reactionary states of terra. Striving to do the right thing with equitable pay and worker-owned businesses, their principles preventing them from racing to the bottom in brutish capitalist fashion, their wares, costing more, find little adherence among the amoral population of earth, and only patronage by their fraternal socialist brethren in Venus will prevent them from rejecting their morals on the grounds of hunger.

While the Mattopians are on the council, they appear to be advocating for more peaceful and proactive measures, not reactionary ones, and our West African brothers seem hugely distrustful of the scheme. Their wisdom is trusted as family, and we are therefore similarly wary. But even despite their lack of support, the motion seems to be passing with fanfare, as the status quo powers seek to preserve their global hegemony in the face of growing socialist agitation (for let us be clear, the "offworld threat" two-thirds of the security council opposes is socialism, which, as we must remind, is the birthright of all sentient beings and had its first adherents on earth). You cannot stop a terrorist attack with a field army, but you can sack a workers' paradise.

Further, while you insist it is not a slight against us or the most esteemed space comrades, we doubt the veracity of that statement. For one, you condemn "destabilization and terrorism brought on by off-world powers," in special reference to the attack on Mars, strongly implying that it is not Mars you fear, but a non-Martian, offworld power, of which there is but one - the Universal People's Federation. Further, not only does this mean you mobilize against us, but you in fact slander us by holding us responsible for the actions of an as-yet-undetermined terror organization, which we have no reason to associate with the Federation.

No, socialism is not the threat to earth. You are the threat to earth - your reaction, your imperialist bickering, your capitalist overexploitation of the colonial worlds - will prove the downfall of your planet far more surely than anything so abstract as workers' freedom.
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Re: The League of Cairo

Postby Zander » 16 Oct 2018, 04:32

We care more for the plight of the isolated commune, suffering under capitalist oppression in the reactionary states of terra. Striving to do the right thing with equitable pay and worker-owned businesses, their principles preventing them from racing to the bottom in brutish capitalist fashion, their wares, costing more, find little adherence among the amoral population of earth, and only patronage by their fraternal socialist brethren in Venus will prevent them from rejecting their morals on the grounds of hunger.


I assure you there are communes on Earth. But not everyone wants to live in a commune. And your talk of socialist-imperialism does nothing to alleviate that claims that Socialism is here as an invasive force meant to undermine the right of Terran people's right to national self-determination. O

While the Mattopians are on the council, they appear to be advocating for more peaceful and proactive measures, not reactionary ones, and our West African brothers seem hugely distrustful of the scheme. Their wisdom is trusted as family, and we are therefore similarly wary. But even despite their lack of support, the motion seems to be passing with fanfare, as the status quo powers seek to preserve their global hegemony in the face of growing socialist agitation (for let us be clear, the "offworld threat" two-thirds of the security council opposes is socialism, which, as we must remind, is the birthright of all sentient beings and had its first adherents on earth). You cannot stop a terrorist attack with a field army, but you can sack a workers' paradise.


If pledging military units to Cairo is "reactionary," then the Mattopians have been reactionary for as long as they have been Communist. They have pledged military units to Cairo for millennia. Given recent events, we simply thought it best to follow their lead and ensure everyone contributes.

And of course you can stop a terrorist attack with a field army. We have smoked out and obliterated dozens of Liberation cells over the years. And we haven't heard from them in ages. You just have to gut the cancer before it grows. If you don't, you get Mars.

Socialism doesn't have to fear attack on Earth, unless those socialists are using terrorist tactics.

Further, while you insist it is not a slight against us or the most esteemed space comrades, we doubt the veracity of that statement. For one, you condemn "destabilization and terrorism brought on by off-world powers," in special reference to the attack on Mars, strongly implying that it is not Mars you fear, but a non-Martian, offworld power, of which there is but one - the Universal People's Federation. Further, not only does this mean you mobilize against us, but you in fact slander us by holding us responsible for the actions of an as-yet-undetermined terror organization, which we have no reason to associate with the Federation.


It is only a slight if you plan to aggressively spread your off-world ideology on our planet. Or if you plan major terrorist attacks on Earth. This is a defensive Earth-minded organisation.

We don't fear Mars. They are a peaceful planet full of an aging power, a pacifist philanthropic corporation, with only Baun being a potential military threat. Clearly, if they would attack Earth, that would require a response, of course.

As for the terrorist attack, we consider Liberation an off-world power, and we do consider them a suspect. However, we would be lying if we said that Venus was not the number #1 suspect for the attack. Venus is one of the only states with the know-how to commit such an attack, and from what investigation we have done it is fairly clear that Venusians were involved in every segment of the attack. Of course, it might not be the state itself that committed the atrocity. But the investigation is still pending. And at the moment it is will blame will fall if we don't get more information.

Would you mind opening your borders to assist in the investigation?
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Re: The League of Cairo

Postby Subotai45 » 19 Oct 2018, 16:46

Zander wrote:I assure you there are communes on Earth. But not everyone wants to live in a commune. And your talk of socialist-imperialism does nothing to alleviate that claims that Socialism is here as an invasive force meant to undermine the right of Terran people's right to national self-determination.


Poor Mobiabs, so doctrinally uneducated. While we know there are a few, not everyone lives in one. They think they do not want to, because they have been poorly deceived by the capitalist oppressors, or they exhibit excessive bourgeois traits like greed and jealousy, rather than socialist kindness and sharing-with-neighbors. Further - we are sorry, you have been so misinformed - socialism and imperialism are opposites. We cannot be imperialist if we are socialist. We liberate, not conquer. You see socialism as an invasive force, but we believe capitalism is the invasive force - self-determination is of course important, which is why we wish to implement it not just on the national level, but on the workplace level as well!

If pledging military units to Cairo is "reactionary," then the Mattopians have been reactionary for as long as they have been Communist. They have pledged military units to Cairo for millennia. Given recent events, we simply thought it best to follow their lead and ensure everyone contributes.

We too, are sadly aware that the UMC has been historically negligent in its socialist responsibilities, but they are changing for the better. Active military cooperation with capitalists and strengthening a capitalist organization is one aspect in which we hope (many pray, we are secular and so do not make such references to any possible deities prominent) that they will reform. Ensuring everyone contributes, is, of course, an admirable socialist characteristic comrade! We just hope you see that it is important for the same to be considered of the rich in your country, in preparation for universal socialism.

And of course you can stop a terrorist attack with a field army. We have smoked out and obliterated dozens of Liberation cells over the years. And we haven't heard from them in ages. You just have to gut the cancer before it grows. If you don't, you get Mars.

A field army is a pretty unwieldy instrument, no? Historical successes have been found using more scapellike and less hammerlike methods. Rather than devoting a field army, more suited to nationstate level war, why not devote some scapels? Pacifican special operations are as competent as any bourgeious organization can hope to be, and would combat terrorism far more effectively.

Socialism doesn't have to fear attack on Earth, unless those socialists are using terrorist tactics.

We don't fear attack on Earth - tovarish, we are very far away! We fear attack on Venus. And given your apparent beefing-up in preparation for major power war, we are worried, mojo amigo. We simply hope that the traditional capitalist tendency to declare any hostile ideology a terroristic one does not rear it's ugly head (unlike yours, which is passably attractive), and that you do not use false definitions of terrorism against our multiethnic workers' paradise.

It is only a slight if you plan to aggressively spread your off-world ideology on our planet. Or if you plan major terrorist attacks on Earth. This is a defensive Earth-minded organisation.

Tisn't an offworld ideology futurecomrade! When Karl Marx and all the other great thinkers of old birthed communism, they did so on earth. When the Modern Revolutions happened, they were on earth. We are but the latest in a strong, and terran-centered lineage! And while we admit that you are titularly defensive, no one puts them under the ministry of attack! Even aggressors have a Ministry of Defense, ha ha!

We don't fear Mars. They are a peaceful planet full of an aging power, a pacifist philanthropic corporation, with only Baun being a potential military threat. Clearly, if they would attack Earth, that would require a response, of course.

We still think u r racist to Venusians. You don't care when Baun fights people on earth, you do care when we fight people offearth. Is very rude. Very unchill.

As for the terrorist attack, we consider Liberation an off-world power, and we do consider them a suspect. However, we would be lying if we said that Venus was not the number #1 suspect for the attack. Venus is one of the only states with the know-how to commit such an attack, and from what investigation we have done it is fairly clear that Venusians were involved in every segment of the attack. Of course, it might not be the state itself that committed the atrocity. But the investigation is still pending. And at the moment it is will blame will fall if we don't get more information.

Would you mind opening your borders to assist in the investigation?


We are willing to share any information requested, and you can request to question any witnesses you wish, so long as they have a Justice Commissariat attorney and SSC agent in the room. We will not, however, casually throw open borders and let you walk wherever you want.
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Re: The League of Cairo

Postby kingpie3 » 19 Oct 2018, 18:02

The Consortium is only speaking on this because our name was mentioned. We have not fought a war since our inception, the intervention in Brazil to defend a Baunairi ethnic enclave was conducted by a previous government using Venusian mercenaries.

We are no present threat to Earth and wish for a continuation of postive relations with its various powers. The Adored One eagerly watches these unfolding negotiations in the hope it will bring Earth towards a more peaceful union of nations. As we know all too well, the threat of terrorism is very real and efforts should be taken by the international community to protect innocents. Whatever form that takes on Earth remains to be seen but the company will support these measures as a show of solidarity with its governments.
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Re: The League of Cairo

Postby Zander » 20 Oct 2018, 02:33

Poor Mobiabs, so doctrinally uneducated. While we know there are a few, not everyone lives in one. They think they do not want to, because they have been poorly deceived by the capitalist oppressors, or they exhibit excessive bourgeois traits like greed and jealousy, rather than socialist kindness and sharing-with-neighbors. Further - we are sorry, you have been so misinformed - socialism and imperialism are opposites. We cannot be imperialist if we are socialist. We liberate, not conquer. You see socialism as an invasive force, but we believe capitalism is the invasive force - self-determination is of course important, which is why we wish to implement it not just on the national level, but on the workplace level as well!


Yeah, yeah, you know how to run countries better then the people who live in them. And you guys have the solution to all of life's problems. Heard it all before. A million times by a million ideologies. I'm sure the victims of your ""liberation""" wars see a huge difference between your bullets and an """Imperialists."""

We Mobians, on the other hand, trust the people of Earth to rule themselves in a way consistent with their own beliefs. And we don't think people should be shot, lazored, or bombed just because you think you have it in your head that you should project power.

We too, are sadly aware that the UMC has been historically negligent in its socialist responsibilities, but they are changing for the better. Active military cooperation with capitalists and strengthening a capitalist organization is one aspect in which we hope (many pray, we are secular and so do not make such references to any possible deities prominent) that they will reform. Ensuring everyone contributes, is, of course, an admirable socialist characteristic comrade! We just hope you see that it is important for the same to be considered of the rich in your country, in preparation for universal socialism.


Damn Mattopians for putting their country before their ideology.

A field army is a pretty unwieldy instrument, no? Historical successes have been found using more scapellike and less hammerlike methods. Rather than devoting a field army, more suited to nationstate level war, why not devote some scapels? Pacifican special operations are as competent as any bourgeious organization can hope to be, and would combat terrorism far more effectively.


¿por qué no los dos?

We have omitted substantial spec ops assets to hunting down the Communists organisation that perpetuated this horrible act. But a field army may be necessary to exact justice, and protect Earth, depending on the perpetrator. If Venus had nothing to do with this terrorist action, there should be no concern.

Besides, committing a field army is a responsibility to Cairo that we have had for a while but been negligent in.

We don't fear attack on Earth - tovarish, we are very far away! We fear attack on Venus. And given your apparent beefing-up in preparation for major power war, we are worried, mojo amigo. We simply hope that the traditional capitalist tendency to declare any hostile ideology a terroristic one does not rear it's ugly head (unlike yours, which is passably attractive), and that you do not use false definitions of terrorism against our multiethnic workers' paradise.


Well, unless our field army starts being able to breath in the deep dark void of space, you have nothing to worry about. Cairo doesn't have any more space-power then it had yesterday. And, this isn't a "beef up," it's just moving an army from Mobius command to Cairo command.

Tisn't an offworld ideology futurecomrade! When Karl Marx and all the other great thinkers of old birthed communism, they did so on earth. When the Modern Revolutions happened, they were on earth. We are but the latest in a strong, and terran-centered lineage! And while we admit that you are titularly defensive, no one puts them under the ministry of attack! Even aggressors have a Ministry of Defense, ha ha!


It's mostly off-world at this point. In terms of population. By Cairo definitions it is off-world.

Lineage does not count. If lineage counted, then every Venusian would actually be Terran because you all share a distant Terran lineage (be it evolutionary or technological). What went wrong, I don't know.

We still think u r racist to Venusians. You don't care when Baun fights people on earth, you do care when we fight people offearth. Is very rude. Very unchill.


Sorry that we aren't, like, all chill and stuff.

We are willing to share any information requested, and you can request to question any witnesses you wish, so long as they have a Justice Commissariat attorney and SSC agent in the room. We will not, however, casually throw open borders and let you walk wherever you want.

That may or may not satisfy justice. We will be in contact.
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Re: The League of Cairo

Postby Subotai45 » 21 Oct 2018, 02:30

Imma say it real loud for the people in the back:

Not all ideologies are equal.

Acting like a dictatorship where one man gets all the power is representative of a nation, is wrong. Acting like the cooperative and metitia, where money literally buys votes, are nations that represent the people and not just he wealthy interests, is wrong. If everyone, everywhere, had a true snd equal say in how their country was run, we’d have no issue. But we don’t think we know better than the people who live there. We think they know best. We just also don’t think they’re the ones running the place.

Whether it’s nobles, dictators, moneyed interests, or any other kind of elite, we think that the people of non socialist earth are bei oppressed and their voices do not get equal weight in the running of their country. That’s why we advocate for revolution, for intervention. Because the system won’t peacefully reform itself- it will only be smashed from within or without. And given the depths of the sociological conditioning in capitalist states, they way in which you convince them to admire their prison, revolution from within is unlikely - so we must assist.

So yeah, we do think ideology should be before this socially constructed idea of a country. Countries are relics of bourgeois nationalism. Socialism is the product of workers’ rights and democratic equality. Acting like realpolitik is some kind of virtue is insane. It’s an amoral excuse for the elite to advance their interests and drag the country along. Socialist liberation is giving power to the oppressed peoples of the world.

Huh, exact justice? I remember a time when Mobius condemned Venus for wanting such a thing in the event of an attack on heir plant. Curious how the tune has changed. Guess it’s just that Venusian lives don’t count huh?

Socialism is a universal ideology: claiming otherwise is deliberately obtuse. Sure, the plurality is Venusian, and therefore offworld. But if Mobius were to conquer Venus, it’d - by that definition - it would be an offesrth power too. Raw population doesn’t matter, what matters is that there are substantial populations on all the worlds that adhere to socialism, and the center of the current wave has always been on earth. You can’t act like earth isn’t still the center or revolution.
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Re: The League of Cairo

Postby Zander » 21 Oct 2018, 04:23

Subotai45 wrote:IImma say it real loud for the people in the back:

Not all ideologies are equal.

Acting like a dictatorship where one man gets all the power is representative of a nation, is wrong. Acting like the cooperative and metitia, where money literally buys votes, are nations that represent the people and not just he wealthy interests, is wrong. If everyone, everywhere, had a true snd equal say in how their country was run, we’d have no issue. But we don’t think we know better than the people who live there. We think they know best. We just also don’t think they’re the ones running the place.

Whether it’s nobles, dictators, moneyed interests, or any other kind of elite, we think that the people of non socialist earth are bei oppressed and their voices do not get equal weight in the running of their country. That’s why we advocate for revolution, for intervention. Because the system won’t peacefully reform itself- it will only be smashed from within or without. And given the depths of the sociological conditioning in capitalist states, they way in which you convince them to admire their prison, revolution from within is unlikely - so we must assist.


Of course not all ideologies are equal. But who appointed you the dictatorial decider of which ideologies are "good" and which are "bad?" Why should Venus stand as judge and executioner over Terran powers? Wait, jury too I suppose. Naw, you'd probably just brainwash the jury. That's the Venusian style.

If you really want to change the way those countries work, there are plenty of ways to do that besides invasion and slaughter. Work within the system. Encourage non-violent protest. Send civilian aid, with blessing from the local leadership. But don't destabilize a country and kill tens of thousands just because you think there is a faint hope that you can prop up a puppet state that might be the tiniest bit functional. You know, before it collapses back into a dictatorship.

Besides, you are thinking so last millenia. For whatever reason most people are inexplicably happy under whatever government they are under! Just as Venusians were all happy under the Empire! And now they are all happy as Communists! It's the strangest thing, but it seems to be how the worlds work. Citizens are just happy all the time.

So yeah, we do think ideology should be before this socially constructed idea of a country. Countries are relics of bourgeois nationalism. Socialism is the product of workers’ rights and democratic equality. Acting like realpolitik is some kind of virtue is insane. It’s an amoral excuse for the elite to advance their interests and drag the country along. Socialist liberation is giving power to the oppressed peoples of the world.


Realpolitik isn't a virtue. It's real. The Socialists know this, which is why they have the largest military alliance to have ever existed.

Huh, exact justice? I remember a time when Mobius condemned Venus for wanting such a thing in the event of an attack on heir plant. Curious how the tune has changed. Guess it’s just that Venusian lives don’t count huh?


We are real sorry something bad happened in your distant past. Although I am sure our predecessors tried very hard back then to deliver justice.

Either way, a few dozen Venusians being killed is not even in the same universe as ----millions----- being obliterated for seemingly no reason.

Socialism is a universal ideology: claiming otherwise is deliberately obtuse. Sure, the plurality is Venusian, and therefore offworld. But if Mobius were to conquer Venus, it’d - by that definition - it would be an offesrth power too. Raw population doesn’t matter, what matters is that there are substantial populations on all the worlds that adhere to socialism, and the center of the current wave has always been on earth. You can’t act like earth isn’t still the center or revolution.


Is that a... Venusian claiming that their planet isn't the home to the revolution? Now I have seen everything.
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Re: The League of Cairo

Postby Subotai45 » 25 Oct 2018, 17:39

We don't decide which is "good" and "bad." There simply are, and we have chosen to adhere to the good ones. If you don't have belief that your system of government is the correct one, then why follow it? We have a firm and abiding belief that socialism and democracy are the birthright of all peoples, regardless of planet. Your defense of Terran autocracies against the people they oppress puts you on the wrong side of history, Kolchakite. We stand on the side of all peoples, not their oppressors. That, of course, is where we differ. We regard legitimacy as being drawn from the people, you, from whoever happens to be in charge at the moment.

Yeah but like, that don't work. Even when socialists were a sizable voting block within the Cooperative, we couldn't get even the most moderate reform passed. And further, even if they consented to moderate reform, it isn't enough, and some systems are so inherently broken they can't be reformed. In most nations, the authoritarians can just tank nonviolent protest, and if there's any chance that the civilian aid can promote change, it will be denied. The IWA had to fight a war to be able to send aid to the Cooperative's socialists - most regimes aren't willing to let significant pro-democratic aid into their nation, knowing that it will weaken their hold on power.

OOC: Yeah cool we have happy citizen don't mean I can't argue that ideologies are different.

Cool, so the subjects of authoritarian states are habituated into thinking their situation is fine. The capitalists are misinformed into thinking the scraps the working class gets, when it exists, is a good thing, rather than just the merest fraction of their birthright. People think it's fine because they don't know better.

The Revolution must be consolidated. Taking steps towards the promised universal utopia is wholly in line with ideological thinking. The fact that this assembles a lot of military in power doesn't mean that realpolitik is a guiding philosophy for the socialists as it is for Mobius. It means that there is a wave, of ideologically-aligned comrades, who will one day bring universal socialism under one flag - that of the pan-worker IWA. But we are not adherents of realpolitik - which is why when socialist regimes deginerate into autocratic or beurocratic-cabalist states, we will end any existing agreements and count them among the enemies of the people.

That's not to what we are referring. We refer to debates over Hadrian and your insistence you would raise it in the event of a Venusian counterattack on those who harmed their planet. You can read the argument vaguely around this post if you're interested. viewtopic.php?f=60&t=49583&hilit=revenge&start=50

But broadly, when we were concerned with Mattibean glassing, or genocide, or some other war crime, you insisted you'd protect them anyway and our idea of revenge is "troubling." Now, when a terrorist attack occurs, which you attempt to blame us for, you think that vengeance is good.
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