CYOC Main Thread- LOOK HERE FIRST

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Are polls useful?

NO!
2
11%
Yes?
5
26%
Maybe.
1
5%
Mobius is overrated.
11
58%
 
Total votes : 19

Re: CYOC Main Thread- LOOK HERE FIRST

Postby RedSun » 12 Aug 2019, 19:15

So I mean the arbitrary nature is what let’s cycles last for years on end. Another question that should be answered is how much of an advantage does an SP have if we don’t want to define it exactly. The way I see it is that having a few additional specialized techs isn’t really much more of a buff than what we have now where we say basically you have no shot at beating them.

Maybe megawars to mark the end of cycles isn’t the best idea but what would you suggest?

As for new players being able to focus on a specific area, I focused a lot on Cyber and Air technology when I first got here. It was a little over a year since I joined when League happened. But then my air force got stomped on by Cons in the first battle I had with him while I barely made a dent. After that I knew I was screwed.
Also the hypothetical scenario that I could beat Mobius with 2 other specialized powers who’ve been around a while but are newer will realistically never happen. Since I joined no one else has stayed around.
When is the point when I can 1 v. 1 someone else (not Mobius cause it’s a 2 player country) and have an roughly equal chance at beating them? (Assuming they have no allies).
I don’t want to have to rely on others forever. I’m just inclined not to fight wars since I can’t win and don’t understand when I can realistically win.

Subs, you said you like the idea of “specialized” technologies.
What about the limit. I know a while back Cons suggested there be a limit of roughly 5 technologies per war but it was heavily pushed back on because it was so small.
I think 40 is better since it allows for a variety of technologies and also a player whose been around 200 years can max out their technology list.
Then we can have 10 of those be specialized. We could permit specialization faster than tech list maximization. So let’s say after 100 years he can have his 10 specialized technologies.
There may need to be some gray zones, we could have civilian oriented technology be able to be researched separately or terraforming, space mining and economic technologies separately. The kinks would need to be worked out.
This makes it clearer to everyone what areas every country has focused on developing.
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Re: CYOC Main Thread- LOOK HERE FIRST

Postby Zander » 13 Aug 2019, 00:40

If you guys want a more in-depth discussion of judging, I am judging a thing or two right now. If I can get consent from all parties, would it be helpful to have an "open hand" judging, where I describe the process I use in real-time?
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Re: CYOC Main Thread- LOOK HERE FIRST

Postby mat.gopack » 13 Aug 2019, 00:43

Zander wrote:If you guys want a more in-depth discussion of judging, I am judging a thing or two right now. If I can get consent from all parties, would it be helpful to have an "open hand" judging, where I describe the process I use in real-time?

We did have a judging discussion thread in the past for similar findings, but if people find it useful to see it in real time it can't hurt.
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Re: CYOC Main Thread- LOOK HERE FIRST

Postby Subotai45 » 13 Aug 2019, 16:53

RedSun wrote:So I mean the arbitrary nature is what let’s cycles last for years on end. Another question that should be answered is how much of an advantage does an SP have if we don’t want to define it exactly. The way I see it is that having a few additional specialized techs isn’t really much more of a buff than what we have now where we say basically you have no shot at beating them.


So the difference, as I see it, is now, there's no buff to being an SP right now. Speaking as an SP, there's nothing I have that a non-SP doesn't. There's no mechanical definition of SP even (and people disagree on who is an SP right now). So what you're proposing is actually just buffing SPs, rather than bringing the gap closer.

Maybe megawars to mark the end of cycles isn’t the best idea but what would you suggest?

Yeah you have me stumped tbh, I don't have a better plan. I'm mulling over the idea of a "prestige" stat or something, because honestly, that's all that being an SP is. There's a reason people consider Cons an SP but not King, and that's just prestige - leftover from the Sybian era, boosted by League, sharpened by constant war, whatever. But it might be a nice experiment to see if we get a rotating cast of people at the top if we had quantifiable prestige you could get by fighting people, winning wars, forming or leading factions. In my current idea, it doesn't really have any effect, but it's a Shiny Thing that lets you know who is actually active and influential.

As for new players being able to focus on a specific area, I focused a lot on Cyber and Air technology when I first got here. It was a little over a year since I joined when League happened. But then my air force got stomped on by Cons in the first battle I had with him while I barely made a dent. After that I knew I was screwed.

I think that's another problem, in that people need to effectively communicate these influences to the judge and community as a whole. As another example, for centuries my space fleet was ancient foreign-built trash, so when I hit my first space conflict (a brief skirmish with Matt) post-unification I had to hammer it home to the judge that things had changed. I can say as judge I didn't really get that impression from your forces. I thought that submarine and subterranean warfare were the focuses, for example. Back-and-forth communication between judges and players would help - maybe everyone does pick two/three things they're really good at and at the top be like "yo judge, my specialties are infantry, long-range artillery, and submarines" or whatever.

Also the hypothetical scenario that I could beat Mobius with 2 other specialized powers who’ve been around a while but are newer will realistically never happen. Since I joined no one else has stayed around.
Ok yeah that's 100% a problem. We might need to do a forum push - usually gets a dude or so that'll end up sticking and a few that don't. I think we need to figure out how to expand recruitment beyond the playdip pool though. I'm not sure if that's "yo Fred, I know you like roleplaying and drawing maps, I think I know a game you'd like" to yer pals, or something on another site, but I didn't realize til Red said it how long we've gone without a player sticking. (to be clear, I don't think SP power imbalances is the reason people leave. I think it's that we aren't flashy or engaging enough when they get here and there aren't enough people they can fight Day 1 equally - but that's outside the scope of this convo and we can hit it later)

When is the point when I can 1 v. 1 someone else (not Mobius cause it’s a 2 player country) and have an roughly equal chance at beating them? (Assuming they have no allies).
I don’t want to have to rely on others forever. I’m just inclined not to fight wars since I can’t win and don’t understand when I can realistically win.

Pep talk - now! (Digression - Mobius more or less should be balanced as a country, not as 2 players imo but again not the point here). Look, I know you've got stomped in League - if you want advice about what went wrong, shoot me a PM. It's a little late due to how long ago it was, but I can go point-by-point through the battles and say what went wrong for you, and how a few brief choices could have completely changed things. Example - if you had read Cons's OP (and it were better-labelled) you would have seen that he vastly outnumbered you in the air, ten to one. In that situation, an aerial attack isn't your best bet. If you had those extra 8m good troops and all the planes, the battle for China woulda been really different. See the enemy's strengths and work to avoid them. ("You know I have missiles, what are you gonna do about them when you fight me" - Matt, whenever we bring up this concept)

Know your own strengths and the enemy's weaknesses. Cons is notorious for our memes about his "navy." You had a ton of subs. If you used them aggressively, cons couldn't have put a toe in water without getting blown halfway to South America. If you cut off his mainland army from any reinforcement you could have managed to hold the line. Now, it's easy for me to say this, because I saw both sides of the judging the whole time, and I've been here a long time. But without getting into specifics, you can see how a few simple choices - be more cautious in the air, be more aggressive in the water - you could have managed to 1v1 Cons and fought him to a stalemate without getting too fancy. And who knows past that? The submarine blockade, if effective enough, could have prevented reinforcement entirely and let you wear down his mainland army faster than he could replace it with only Vietnam's industry until it gets weak enough for you to break through, even without worrying about allies.

My point is, you've created a military and a country that can fight against any other as long as you make the strategic choices that keeps it on your terms. You've fought your first great power war, you learned some lessons, and going forward you'll do better. This might be optimistic, but with the base tech everyone has now, they can field OP units without even using their own tech, and everyone has enough of a population and economy base to field a military that's within the rough size needed to fight other folks. Matt's marker of quality is that within 2-3 months you can influence a war. For me, it's within a year/year and a half you can fight 1v1 and if you make good choices, you won't get squashed.

Subs, you said you like the idea of “specialized” technologies.
What about the limit. I know a while back Cons suggested there be a limit of roughly 5 technologies per war but it was heavily pushed back on because it was so small.
I think 40 is better since it allows for a variety of technologies and also a player whose been around 200 years can max out their technology list.
Then we can have 10 of those be specialized. We could permit specialization faster than tech list maximization. So let’s say after 100 years he can have his 10 specialized technologies.
There may need to be some gray zones, we could have civilian oriented technology be able to be researched separately or terraforming, space mining and economic technologies separately. The kinks would need to be worked out.
This makes it clearer to everyone what areas every country has focused on developing.

I personally like "areas" rather than "techs" as specialized, but 40 seems fair enough to me for techs. So many of the techs people send me as judge are things that are definitely rolled into or duplicated in the base tech everyone gets and I think 40 should be enough. Now, I'm personally amenable to having it "you better not send more than 40" in one judging, and let people have a bit of an "inventory of spares." Some techs are important for flavor (Venusians lay eggs) but aren't relevant to judging in virtually any case (that ain't coming up in a space battle. Or ground battle. Or hacking. You get the point).
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Re: CYOC Main Thread- LOOK HERE FIRST

Postby beadsman » 13 Aug 2019, 17:06

I've personally noticed that the main problem comes with nations run by multiple people where many of the players running that nation then go inactive.

Most of the nations that are completely untouchable fall into that category. It just gives a huge edge that can't realistically be overcome by any single player. That makes for interesting flavor, sure, but I find out lends itself to creating these big blocs where no one wants to poke anyone else for fear of retribution. This really discourages activity. I know for my part that I have been less active as a result.

One solution might be to establish a new rule that we treat members of Confederate nations like a normal country when they go inactive. The techs can remain with the whole, as well as some of the culture and people from that region for flavor purposes, but it otherwise disappears. The land is returned to white space, the infrastructure there is lost (or given to a new l local NPC), and the economic benefits of having so much land are also lost. To me, this makes sense, since when a person normally leaves, that is what happens. I also think that, except for in really special circumstances, countries "gifted" to someone else on death shouldn't really be allowed.

I feel that this would return us to the basics of the game, give single-player countries a chance to actually make a difference, encourage activity, and help fix the problems we have been discussing here. I am aware that not everyone will love giving up land this way, but, in my opinion, this is likely the most permanent solution to a really old problem. I've been trying to overcome the same problem since I joined, and I still feel unable to really compete on a global scale. There are very few people I can 1v1 in a negotiated war. Even RedSun is so militarized I likely couldn't hope to beat him in a land war. My navy is better, though, and that back and forth is what makes it more balanced.

I don't care if some people are more powerful than others. That's fine! It's the fact that some people are so completely unreachable and untouchable thanks to having what amounts to 2-3 countries under their exclusive control. Even Mobius has some bits that are, as I understand it, formerly the nation of an inactive player. For the first time we might enact this, though, I recommend the process be negotiated somewhat. (If there is a territory with really, really meaningful historical significance, perhaps it could be traded for another or something.)

Just my 2 sense.
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Re: CYOC Main Thread- LOOK HERE FIRST

Postby Subotai45 » 13 Aug 2019, 18:04

I'd disagree on "completely untouchable" for the record, but that's probably not the point. I'm amenable to a pop reduction but not necessarily land removal (at least for any proposed actions regarding Venus). I'd also note that simply removing Nejaneb isn't necessarily the fairest way to deal with Mobius - they've stuck over half their pop in there, because under the current system, it doesn't matter where you say your population is, and I don't think anyone is suggesting we take 60% of Mobius's pop out. Finally, Matt has already been spinning off land at the slightest opportunity for ages, so I'm opposed to any unwanted land transfers away from Matt (you can find statements to the effect from when we were enemies as well). That being said, he does have a very high GDP per capita and a highish pop for 1 player that he wasn't really allotted in the old BoSS resolution on the subject. That being said, I'm guessing his GDP (more important than pop IMO) is probably roughly in line with what we expect a large single-player country to have, as is his land.

I am generally amenable to the idea that "confederate" players go inactive like normal ones, so far as pop and such goes, but there's very few of the "I'm leaving have a country" examples. I don't think there are any extant right now. And in every situation of a confederate country now, the union has existed far longer than the independent nations did. I don't think it's quite so easy to carve it out - Mattibea is a good example for this, because he writes about the Carribean nearly as much as his heartland.

For my part, I'd be willing to agree to a reduction to 2.8b from 3.8 (assuming Mobius does something similarly proportional) but not a reduction in land because as stated previously, I don't think that there's any real desire from NPs to start on Venus, and I don't want to ditch flavored regions for no reason. The current division of Venus is Homeworld and Extrasolar (nominally Nar's), and homeworld (my official jurisdiction) has 2.8b of that. Nar also had roughly 1b when we united, so if the idea would be to scratch the "New Hope" area out of Venus economically, that'd also be the right number to remove. Pallas is extrasolar and we know that doesn't really matter. 2.8b is a fair bit higher than other single-player nations, I'll grant, but it's also a sharp reduction from the current status quo, and my two folks have been known to pop in on occasion for a time (within the last year we've seen both) so for a "one plus visitors" it doesn't seem ludicrous.
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Re: CYOC Main Thread- LOOK HERE FIRST

Postby RedSun » 15 Aug 2019, 14:11

So long as you’re on Venus I don’t think land reduction makes sense because as I see we want as many people on earth as possible.
As for Mobius, yeah I agree don’t just cut out the population of Nejaneb, maybe make it 2/3rds of what it was before or something like that.
As for Matt, his territory isn’t large, I agree that it’s fine with him keeping those territories.

So how would the Prestige Stat work? How would it keep the players rotating at the top?
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Re: CYOC Main Thread- LOOK HERE FIRST

Postby Subotai45 » 15 Aug 2019, 15:56

RedSun wrote:So long as you’re on Venus I don’t think land reduction makes sense because as I see we want as many people on earth as possible.
As for Mobius, yeah I agree don’t just cut out the population of Nejaneb, maybe make it 2/3rds of what it was before or something like that.
As for Matt, his territory isn’t large, I agree that it’s fine with him keeping those territories.

So how would the Prestige Stat work? How would it keep the players rotating at the top?


So with Nejaneb (and Clayton and Ninja Clan to a lesser extent) we probably need to move away from that. Especially, because in the last population reduction, we slashed Mobius from like 12b to 5b (and then I guess King leaving was a 0.5b loss down to the current 4.5ish). So, if they had wanted to, they could have just chosen on their imperial census to put more people in Pacifica and NVC when they did that restructuring. Right now those two territories are a little over 1.5b, and they could easily have said those territories had 3b. We don't want to penalize them for what flavor choices they made in Ragnorok.

It's probably a lot easier for us as a community - hopefully with strong Mobian involvement coming out soon - to decide what a fair number is for Mobius, what the land loss is if any, and run based on how we want the game to run in the present and not how big they arbitrarily made their subdivisions.

So prestige might be worthwhile even among these broader changes. The premise it relies on, is "what determines an SP now?" My answer to that question is nothing matters in determining an SP other than prestige, or the collective player opinion of how tough a player is. The Cooperative is an SP because people think it is, not because it's larger or wealthier. The PCG isn't an SP because people don't think of it as such.

Honestly, I'm leaning towards "we're doing better things to fix the problem" than my earlier prestige idea. The broader issue of "these people are untouchable" is being solved, and the impossible-to-bridge gap of tech was killed ages ago when Matt and I did the tech dump. Also, being an SP doesn't matter. There's no rules advantage or anything. If everyone is within spitting distance of fighting an "SP", which they should be after the tech dump and a pop realignment, people who want to can. Right now prestige is all that matters to determine an SP anyway (it ain't pop bc PCG has 2b or GDP bc Baun has more than Coop and we don't think they are).

We can see how it runs. I was talking to Cons yesterday, and I mentioned that at some point, something has to matter though, something has to decide who wins a war. And if we're levelling tech and levelling population and GDP and all those numbers that used to (especially in ye olden days) let you throw a million super soldiers at five kindergarteners, then it's gonna be strategy that is the difference between the winner and loser of a war.
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Re: CYOC Main Thread- LOOK HERE FIRST

Postby Constantine072 » 16 Aug 2019, 15:18

Just to add on to everyone else; among the 4 Greats, I am the Ottoman or Russia depending on your perspective. Even after the Great Division and refocus of my army & military. Subs put it right I am SP by prestige alone. Because I am often the big mover and shaker for things. And League War by extension was; well you were fighting my fight. A long term attrition based conflict where I can open multiple fronts in a compact environment. Is my army specialty via units like commanders and nanolathes.

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Re: CYOC Main Thread- LOOK HERE FIRST

Postby Vogelhut24 » 17 Aug 2019, 02:14

Country name: Kingdom of Deseret
First land: Utah
Capital City: Salt Lake City (Taylor Castle)
Government type: Absolute Monarchy
Starting Population (50 million or less): 50 million
Information on size of Military (max 10% of pop): 20 million
Starting technologies: Modern Day
Some advantages your civ holds: Defensive, Militia, high unity and stability.
Some disadvantages your civ must deal with: Zealous, Nepotism
Anything else:
Defensive - Your nation is a fortress. You start with a dense network of defenses in your initial land.
Militia - Your entire nation trains in its defense. You begin with 20% of your population as trained militia, able to be used in defensive wars on your territory.
Histories: The Taylor dynasty allegedly has its roots in the founder of Mormonism Joseph Smith through the matrilineal line. The nation formed to protect the Mormon people from outsiders and to keep the ideology of the nation pure. Deseret sees itself as the protector of the Mormon faith and people, doing everything in its power to protect itself.
Military organization: Deseret has a proud military chosen by god to serve the Taylor dynasty. There is nothing more holy then to die in the service of one’s king. From a young age 1 out of every 5 children is chosen to serve in the Deseret Militia to protect the holy land from those who would oppose us. The kingdom has modern technology, and modern division templates. Officers are chosen personally by the king based on loyalty, piety, and family name.
Political structures: Absolute Monarchy held by the current king Bryan Taylor. Bryan controls absolute power over the state, government, and religious life of the people of Deseret. The sole purpose of the people is to serve their monarch chosen by god himself. All the land in Deseret is owned personally by the Taylors, with them appointing regional governors for the administrative purposes with those chosen being of minor branches of the dynasty or friends of the monarchy.
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