DIAS only Gunboat?

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DIAS only Gunboat?

Postby Malarky » 06 Nov 2020, 21:19

I don't like Gunboat very much but, well, I thought I'd give it a try... again :?

I joined a couple of games which were non-DIAS draw games, meaning draw proposals can be made at any time without including everyone in the draw. Now, I'm constantly - at least it feels constantly - getting Public Press posts proposing draws between two or three powers. This is clearly a way of communicating offered alliances between powers in an otherwise non-communication game.

Now, there have always been ways around not being able to message someone or post messages in Public Press. Mainly that has been by the orders issued. If you wanted to communicate to another player that you wanted to work with, you had to all but give up one of your unit's orders to propose a support order for one of that power's units. Usually this would be an illegal order, eg. A Ber S NWG-MAO. Something so ridiculous that it stood out, for anyone with the patience or nouse to look at order history. It cost you something to communicate.

For me, being able to use draw proposals in this way feels off, especially when it's happening all the time. This certainly has something to do with me not being a great fan of Gunboat, but it also seems to be too easy, and cost nothing, to circumvent the no communication rule. So if you're a Gunboat aficionado this may not be a problem for you.

What I'd like is for Gunboat to only allow the DIAS option. Draw proposals are supposed to be a way to end the game, not a communication tool, for me. And, yes, I know non-DIAS draws have always been a part of the site, but it used to be that draw proposals couldn't be made before 1905, so using them this way wasn't the default communication mode.

I'm not the only person who feels this way. It seems to me that, like the Dolph Shtoss who posted this advert, it isn't Gunboat.
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Re: DIAS only Gunboat?

Postby TTBen » 06 Nov 2020, 23:26

Im trying to get better at full communication and less Gunboat but I'm still more comfortable at Gunboat. While I agree with the premise that the constant draw proposals are annoying I'm not sure they are all that effective since they have no messaging behind them to build trust. I've found quite frequently that players will propose a draw and then their moves are the exact opposite.
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Re: DIAS only Gunboat?

Postby MisterPlant » 07 Nov 2020, 09:46

Totaly agree with Ben.Draw posting in gunboat is as much about misdirection as it can be for attempting to form alliances and seldom can be relied upon.
As a regular gunboater in addition to normal diplomacy games,I say if it ain’t broke,don’t try and fix it.
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Re: DIAS only Gunboat?

Postby Malarky » 07 Nov 2020, 11:00

I get that. And, yes, obviously messaging by draw proposal is unreliable, but so is messaging by direct message. Just because you can't trust the draw proposal message, you can't trust anything said in a message - completely. You still have to use the board to see if the message - in whatever form - makes sense.

But the draw proposal is a message, nonetheless. And, frankly, I think it is broken because, aside from the annoyance of these messages - not what draw proposals are about - it's far too easy to communicate this way, IMO.

As I've said, I don't particularly like Gunboat anyway. Won't too big an issue to avoid it. I just think this kind of communication isn't something that ought to be in Gunboat games.
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Re: DIAS only Gunboat?

Postby Audacia » 07 Nov 2020, 14:49

Malarky - I also think the constant draw proposals in gunboat games are a nuisance. More noise than signal. The only credible way to signal alliance intention is to anticipate your intended's needs and offer supports for them at a minimal cost to your own expansion prospects. I did this as Turkey to my Russia in a game, and we finally got in tune that way. Of course, when my growth was stymied around Munich, we mutually stabbed the same turn. But it ended in a FRT draw, so we managed to pull something out of it.

A disadvantage with DIAS is a one center power gets disproportionate gain, IMHO. Why should a 11/11/11/1 outcome benefit them? Perseverance? I think not. For I've stuck around in many games to complete loss...because that is what you are supposed to do.

Perhaps, the algorithm for a draw in gunboat could change to award stronger countries with proportionately more points. For me, when I play gunboat I won't select DIAS and just try to ignore the nuisance in the PP. Really, is there any reason to ever check PP in a gunboat game? Only to see if you have a surrender that could give you an unexpected boon.

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Re: DIAS only Gunboat?

Postby Oxmeister » 16 Dec 2020, 15:02

Malarky wrote:I don't like Gunboat very much but, well, I thought I'd give it a try... again :?

I joined a couple of games which were non-DIAS draw games, meaning draw proposals can be made at any time without including everyone in the draw. Now, I'm constantly - at least it feels constantly - getting Public Press posts proposing draws between two or three powers. This is clearly a way of communicating offered alliances between powers in an otherwise non-communication game.

Now, there have always been ways around not being able to message someone or post messages in Public Press. Mainly that has been by the orders issued. If you wanted to communicate to another player that you wanted to work with, you had to all but give up one of your unit's orders to propose a support order for one of that power's units. Usually this would be an illegal order, eg. A Ber S NWG-MAO. Something so ridiculous that it stood out, for anyone with the patience or nouse to look at order history. It cost you something to communicate.

For me, being able to use draw proposals in this way feels off, especially when it's happening all the time. This certainly has something to do with me not being a great fan of Gunboat, but it also seems to be too easy, and cost nothing, to circumvent the no communication rule. So if you're a Gunboat aficionado this may not be a problem for you.

What I'd like is for Gunboat to only allow the DIAS option. Draw proposals are supposed to be a way to end the game, not a communication tool, for me. And, yes, I know non-DIAS draws have always been a part of the site, but it used to be that draw proposals couldn't be made before 1905, so using them this way wasn't the default communication mode.

I'm not the only person who feels this way. It seems to me that, like the Dolph Shtoss who posted this advert, it isn't Gunboat.


As an option, I think it's fine.

Where I agree is that the draw proposals circumvent 'true' Gunboat and add a communication layer, I like this 'feature' as it might be considered ; it makes it a sort of hybrid between the two.

TTBen wrote: I've found quite frequently that players will propose a draw and then their moves are the exact opposite.


I would never do such a thing :P
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