Should we know if any orders have been entered

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Re: Should we know if any orders have been entered

Postby marotta » 28 Jul 2019, 13:47

I have had too many Press games where players are hell bent on eliminating any player that fails to finalize moves as early as possible. I prefer not giving them that negotiating point. I do not want my enemies or allies knowing at what point in the nogiating process I decided to enter or finalize moves. That is too much sharing and gives away information.
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Re: Should we know if any orders have been entered

Postby Mr.E » 29 Jul 2019, 09:18

One other issue that occurs to me is when a player enters orders, then changes those orders. I'm assuming that the system would report this twice.

That's actually the biggest issue, I think. If I've entered my orders, and the players are notified of that, then I change them as a result of discussions with another player, then the system would notify others of a the change. I don't necessarily want that to happen.

Yes, perhaps it's closer to FTF to do this - and I'm all for trying to do that in most circumstances - but there are also differences between FTF and all Remote versions of the game. For me I think the not knowing is an important part of the Remote game.
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Re: Should we know if any orders have been entered

Postby jay65536 » 29 Jul 2019, 14:54

Nice straw man.

The original suggestion was just for a flag that says the player has entered orders. The value of this is that the other players can know that the player will not NMR.

There is nothing in either the letter or spirit of the original suggestion that says players would be notified of all order changes.

There is also nothing that says players should have their "finalized" status broadcast--just that the player will not NMR.

This is one of those suggestions that not only am I in favor of it, it's extremely confusing to me why someone would be against it. Why is it better for the game that people NOT know if their prospective allies (or enemies) have turned in moves, as long as there is no extra information being given away?
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Re: Should we know if any orders have been entered

Postby Mr.E » 30 Jul 2019, 09:01

Strawman BS. If there's a notification that someone had entered orders, that will come up every time someone enters an order. If it's when orders are entered it will come up either when a single order is entered or when all orders are entered and therefore when - potentially - a single order is changed. Otherwise it will come up when orders are finalised. Try understanding the application of a suggestion as applied by an automated system.

Now, if this was limited to something like: "Had Player E entered orders for England?" and that was limited to whether every unit had received an order, that is potentially useless. England could well enter orders for most units and leave a unit that might otherwise be ordered to hold without an order.

Alternatively it could be applied as: "Has Player T issued an order for Turkey?" when she might issue orders for a unit and leave it at that.

If anything, this provides more scope for Remote game trickery than it does bring it in line with FTF reality (which is the real point of the suggestion).

Do I want to know if someone is going to NMR? I'd love to. But am I going to have the chance to go into a game 10 or so minutes before every deadline so I can modify my orders on the basis that I think someone will possibly NMR? Pfft.

There are three ways this can be implemented:
- A single unit is given an order, in which case that's useless;
- All units are given orders, in which case it's useless.
- Orders are finalised.

With the first two, they're useless because a non-order is the same as a hold. And if it's one order, that will be reported every time a single unit is ordered.
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Re: Should we know if any orders have been entered

Postby Strategus » 30 Jul 2019, 10:09

This is not how it is on Webdip. It says either you have enterrd orders or not. It does not show when you change them. So it can be done without giving away anything other than that.
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Re: Should we know if any orders have been entered

Postby super_dipsy » 30 Jul 2019, 14:52

Personally, I am against the proposal. It touches on one of my big bugbears - penalizing players for thinking or because of their timezone / RL restrictions.

The problem is that people tend to look at this problem in a static fashion. In other words - 'tell me if x has entered orders so I know if he/she is going to NMR'. Now suppose I am a player who does a lot of negotiating. I agree with someone that we should work together, but of course I talk to others too. Now suppose I am still considering (and of course I have to handle timezone issues like sleeping), so I wait until just before the deadline before I submit my orders.

In this scenario, if we allow people to see that I have not entered orders yet, the logical conclusion from some is that I am not going to ie I am NMRing. So my ally decides that since I have 'gone' he will come and gobble me up. By the time I do get my orders in, due to timezones etc my ally may not even be aware of the fact.

You could say a way around this is to enter a default set of orders as soon as the turn rolls. Then I will ALWAYS show as having orders submitted. But sometimes I may have RL issues which mean I literally only have an hour or so to get my orders in, by which time again some players will have deduced I am NMRing. And anyway, why should I have to put a default set of orders in just to persuade people I am really here, when I am but perhaps still thinking.

I haven't explained that very well, but it is clear in my own mind. The key is giving false readings (people deducing I am not here when I am).
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Re: Should we know if any orders have been entered

Postby ColonelApricot » 31 Jul 2019, 00:04

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Re: Should we know if any orders have been entered

Postby Mr.E » 31 Jul 2019, 09:17

Strategus wrote:This is not how it is on Webdip. It says either you have enterrd orders or not. It does not show when you change them. So it can be done without giving away anything other than that.

Great for Webdip. Then they've found a way of using a completely useless piece of information. This doesn't answer whether someone has entered one order or all, and as Webdip didn't have someone coordinating development there (when I last visited, which was a fair while ago, admittedly, and I left because the site seemed so caustic - ironically, perhaps - rather than because bugs were dealt with by the usual response of "This is a known bug" - get over it) perhaps this can't be answered.

Dipsy's nailed it. Despite my thinking in my second post, the issue is more to do with my initial post. This is a Remote play environment. Although I usually push for anything that makes it more comparable to FTF play, there need to be some aspects that are part of the Remote play setting.
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Re: Should we know if any orders have been entered

Postby Strategus » 31 Jul 2019, 10:01

It's not useless. Just because you don't find it useful.
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Re: Should we know if any orders have been entered

Postby super_dipsy » 31 Jul 2019, 16:42

Strategus wrote:It's not useless. Just because you don't find it useful.

Strategus, I understand you may find it useful because it may suggest to you someone is about to NMR. But my point was looking from the other end of the telescope. As a player who might not have got my orders in until late, I am disadvantaged because with this information available to you, you may decide I have gone and react accordingly. To me, the problem is not for the people USING the information, it is for the people the information is being USED UPON if you see what I mean. it means I have to strive to get orders in early or risk being judged to be absent.
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