Move orders via convoy

This is the home for suggestions for site improvements, changes to house rules, and new variants.
Forum rules
It's okay to suggest new rules variants in this forum, but proposing new *maps* should be done in the linked "New Map Variant Proposals & Voting" subforum.

Re: Move orders via convoy

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 01 Jun 2019, 14:17

I would leave things as they are for now, but I have a separate idea for handling this that would reduce the need for an additional dialogue and click. It would be part of a larger UI experiment.
NoPunIn10Did
Lead Volunteer Developer

Forum Administrator

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
Premium Member
 
Posts: 2437
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 1471
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Move orders via convoy

Postby ColonelApricot » 02 Jun 2019, 22:21

SD: That is a very clear and comprehensive description of the rules and reasoning behind the implementation.

And yet the implementation does not actually match the rules as written. The current implementation requires specifying "via convoy" or "land route" even when the fleet belongs to the player ordering the land unit. Only when a foreign fleet is present should the player need to specify "via convoy". When the fleet belongs to the same player then a simple Move order is sufficient.

And actually it is not at all rare for an army to be able to arrive at its destination either by land or convoy and in most cases it IS the same player's fleet that is involved. So the implementation has the player being forced to select "land route" most of the time when the rules say this is unnecessary.

So I modify my suggestion as follows:

1. Only display the prompt when another player's fleet is present. This would exactly match the behaviour described in the rules and would much improve the user experience of the website.
2. If the via convoy option is specified then this should be included in the order history. Although this is a syntax that is omitted from the rule book it s is consistent with the general approach of replicating the order as specified (compare for example the specification of the coast for split coasts).

.. CA
Dog of War in ToS
GRU of the Despicables in TTT
User avatar
ColonelApricot
Premium Member
 
Posts: 382
Joined: 06 Oct 2013, 11:48
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1010
All-game rating: 1400
Timezone: GMT

Re: Move orders via convoy

Postby super_dipsy » 03 Jun 2019, 07:18

ColonelApricot wrote:And yet the implementation does not actually match the rules as written.

There is no possible implementation that can match the rules as written. The rules as written clearly state that a Move order is written as A Loc1 - Loc2. Although the written rules later give a situation where the player could use a via convoy option, there is no specification how to do that or the syntax; the only way to include such an option is to change the section that describes how to enter move orders and include the possibility of adding a via convoy to the order. The rules would also need to clearly specify what happens when via convoy is specified and there is no convoy route. Our decision on that is that the use of via convoy overrides the land route option, so if there is no valid convoy specified the army stays put. But the written rules are silent on this point.

There was also a discussion when the rule we first implemented this about giving away information in FoW games. I seem to remember we initially went with a similar approach to your proposal that only showed the dialogue if there was a potential convoy route available (in other words there were fleets in place such that a convoy could succeed with the right orders). But if I remmeber right the issue was for example in moving from London to Yorkshire where giving the dialogue box told the player that there must be fleets in eg NAO because otherwise there would be no possible route. Alternatively if the box was NOT shown, that says there is no possible route and hence the seas are not occupied all the way around. Personally I think this is so unlikley as to be almost irrelevant, but people often get twitchy about giving away more info than necessary in FoW :)
User avatar
super_dipsy
Premium Member
 
Posts: 12059
Joined: 04 Nov 2009, 17:43
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 931
Timezone: GMT

Re: Move orders via convoy

Postby ColonelApricot » 03 Jun 2019, 13:43

Sorry but I still don't understand the issue with my suggestion, that the land route/ via convoy prompt should not display when only the same player's fleet is adjacent for a move that falls under the Land and Convoy Routes section. If another player's fleet is adjacent then the prompt can display just as it does now.

It does not affect FoW because this situation only affects areas that are visible anyway.

.. CA
Dog of War in ToS
GRU of the Despicables in TTT
User avatar
ColonelApricot
Premium Member
 
Posts: 382
Joined: 06 Oct 2013, 11:48
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1010
All-game rating: 1400
Timezone: GMT

Re: Move orders via convoy

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 03 Jun 2019, 14:48

I really think the best thing for now would be to make sure the “via convoy” thing is indeed within the orders history.

Other changes to streamline this part of the UI would be welcome, but I would want to see something more comprehensive than just coming up with a set of new rules where the prompt isn’t shown.
NoPunIn10Did
Lead Volunteer Developer

Forum Administrator

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
Premium Member
 
Posts: 2437
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 1471
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Move orders via convoy

Postby super_dipsy » 03 Jun 2019, 16:18

ColonelApricot wrote:Sorry but I still don't understand the issue with my suggestion, that the land route/ via convoy prompt should not display when only the same player's fleet is adjacent for a move that falls under the Land and Convoy Routes section. If another player's fleet is adjacent then the prompt can display just as it does now.

It does not affect FoW because this situation only affects areas that are visible anyway.

OK, I think I misunderstood. So all you are saying is that if the only fleets adjacent to the army are friendly fleets, then there is no need for the dialogue box. But I', still not sure that does not close off an option to you. Suppose you have an army in Venice that you want to move to Piedmont, and a fleet in the Adriatic that belongs to you. The rest of the fleets around the boot of italy and back up are all another player. So in that scenario, you are suggesting I am not given the option to specify the convoy route for the army? I might be wanting to switch places with a unit in Piedmont?

ColonelApricot wrote:2. If the via convoy option is specified then this should be included in the order history. Although this is a syntax that is omitted from the rule book it s is consistent with the general approach of replicating the order as specified (compare for example the specification of the coast for split coasts).
NoPunIn10Did wrote:I really think the best thing for now would be to make sure the “via convoy” thing is indeed within the orders history.

Umm...am I missing something? Via Convoy is already in the orders history...
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (31.84 KiB) Viewed 407 times
User avatar
super_dipsy
Premium Member
 
Posts: 12059
Joined: 04 Nov 2009, 17:43
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 931
Timezone: GMT

Re: Move orders via convoy

Postby jay65536 » 03 Jun 2019, 18:25

dipsy: in your example, the rule is that if you order the fleet in Adr to convoy, it is understood that the army takes the convoy route. There is still no need to explicitly specify "via convoy"; the move and convoy order are enough.
jay65536
 
Posts: 414
Joined: 10 Sep 2016, 18:13
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1120
All-game rating: 1126
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Move orders via convoy

Postby ColonelApricot » 03 Jun 2019, 23:10

NoPunIn10Did wrote:Other changes to streamline this part of the UI would be welcome, but I would want to see something more comprehensive than just coming up with a set of new rules where the prompt isn’t shown.


Streaming the UI is exactly where I'm coming from. A worthy goal would be to eliminate all prompt boxes because they are detrimental to the user experience.

.. CA
Dog of War in ToS
GRU of the Despicables in TTT
User avatar
ColonelApricot
Premium Member
 
Posts: 382
Joined: 06 Oct 2013, 11:48
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1010
All-game rating: 1400
Timezone: GMT

Re: Move orders via convoy

Postby super_dipsy » 04 Jun 2019, 11:19

jay65536 wrote:dipsy: in your example, the rule is that if you order the fleet in Adr to convoy, it is understood that the army takes the convoy route. There is still no need to explicitly specify "via convoy"; the move and convoy order are enough.

True. In that case, I would be OK with the modified proposal, that is to not display the box if the only adjacent fleets to the army are friendly.
User avatar
super_dipsy
Premium Member
 
Posts: 12059
Joined: 04 Nov 2009, 17:43
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 931
Timezone: GMT

Re: Move orders via convoy

Postby ColonelApricot » 05 Jun 2019, 00:14

That probably would resolve the issue with the order history as well because the via convoy order that is not properly recorded could no longer occur (currently if the player specifies via convoy using his own fleet then only a normal move order is reported).

Removal of the prompts from the UI will pose new challenges in maintaining alignment with the rules (as stated and as implemented). The issue of the coasts prompt needs to be addressed also.

We can be confident that the implementation is currently robust in terms of accuracy (there may be quibbles with some variants) and in terms of policies (such as not invalidating illegal orders - with some exceptions). New order syntax will be needed to address the gray areas in the rulebook(s) but the reliable underlying adjudication structure provides a solid baseline for UX improvements.

I look forward to the improvements making an already great website even better!

.. CA
Dog of War in ToS
GRU of the Despicables in TTT
User avatar
ColonelApricot
Premium Member
 
Posts: 382
Joined: 06 Oct 2013, 11:48
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1010
All-game rating: 1400
Timezone: GMT

PreviousNext

Return to Suggestions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest