Ranked Draws & Rank-Based Scoring: Fibonacci-Diplo

This is the home for suggestions for site improvements, changes to house rules, and new variants.
Forum rules
It's okay to suggest new rules variants in this forum, but proposing new *maps* should be done in the linked "New Map Variant Proposals & Voting" subforum.

Re: Ranked Draws & Rank-Based Scoring: Fibonacci-Diplo

Postby V » 08 Jun 2018, 21:13

Having raised issues with “surrender replacements” becoming more challenging, if the objective is changed from “getting a draw” to “position within the draw”, I have another point to raise.

Kingmaking.
Currently a participant with few SC’s (1 or 2) in a stalemate line has as much to lose as everyone else on both sides of the stalemate line. Currently they all have draws. One participant (possibly 2) hoping to improve that to a solo.
This isn’t F2F, with a time limit. Many games will reach stalemate line situations.

Now if your in “5th”, your points score is going to be feeble, admittedly above zero, but feeble. I suspect with so little to lose there will be far more “handing over of #18”. After all, “I like the guy, he deserves it”. Now I’m not one to throw around unsubstantiated metagaming accusations, but we’re opening the door to a little “Quid pro quo” here with little to lose if you never get your favour back. One of the justifications on this change is potentially more solos, but will they be earned?...

So Surrender Replacements, Kingmaking, there’s bound to be more flies in this ointment.
Meanwhile stated benefits, just the one. An alternative to “whittling” to achieve improved scores, by changing the objective to position within the draw, rather than the draw itself.
Getting less convinced all the while & I notice the surrender replacements issue isn’t being contested yet...
Platinum Classicist
Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished.
V
 
Posts: 739
Joined: 04 May 2014, 21:28
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1778
All-game rating: 1829
Timezone: GMT-7

Re: Ranked Draws & Rank-Based Scoring: Fibonacci-Diplo

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 08 Jun 2018, 21:17

V wrote:Having raised issues with “surrender replacements” becoming more challenging, if the objective is changed from “getting a draw” to “position within the draw”, I have another point to raise.

Kingmaking.


In practice, in rank-based and lead-based systems, there is less kingmaking, not more.
Lead Volunteer Developer & Forum Admin

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
 
Posts: 2748
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (1466)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Ranked Draws & Rank-Based Scoring: Fibonacci-Diplo

Postby V » 08 Jun 2018, 21:35

NoPunIn10Did wrote:
V wrote:Having raised issues with “surrender replacements” becoming more challenging, if the objective is changed from “getting a draw” to “position within the draw”, I have another point to raise.

Kingmaking.


In practice, in rank-based and lead-based systems, there is less kingmaking, not more.


Well I suppose that’s a nice simple way to address the issue. State your preferred option as fact. Yep, we’ll go with that then. No concerns whatsoever...I suppose there’s less metagaming too & surrender replacements no problem at all. Fine, now that lots sorted.
Platinum Classicist
Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished.
V
 
Posts: 739
Joined: 04 May 2014, 21:28
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1778
All-game rating: 1829
Timezone: GMT-7

Re: Ranked Draws & Rank-Based Scoring: Fibonacci-Diplo

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 08 Jun 2018, 21:53

V wrote:
NoPunIn10Did wrote:
V wrote:Having raised issues with “surrender replacements” becoming more challenging, if the objective is changed from “getting a draw” to “position within the draw”, I have another point to raise.

Kingmaking.


In practice, in rank-based and lead-based systems, there is less kingmaking, not more.


Well I suppose that’s a nice simple way to address the issue. State your preferred option as fact. Yep, we’ll go with that then. No concerns whatsoever...I suppose there’s less metagaming too & surrender replacements no problem at all. Fine, now that lots sorted.


I should mention that my statement is backed up from discussions with persons heavily involved in running Diplomacy tournaments, particularly Dave Maletsky, who was previously the head of the North American Diplomacy Federation. I'm not just pulling it out of my ass. Multiple tournament venues switched from draw-sized systems to rank-based or lead-based systems, and over the past decade, they've seen improvement across the board in a number of areas. Kingmaking is one such area.

Surrender replacements are an issue that's more unique to the online medium, so I honestly have no idea how that's going to go. The rating shield tends to be the best incentive for people to play bad positions, since they have nothing to lose.

As for metagaming, I really wouldn't expect that to be much different than it is now.
Lead Volunteer Developer & Forum Admin

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
 
Posts: 2748
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (1466)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Ranked Draws & Rank-Based Scoring: Fibonacci-Diplo

Postby V » 08 Jun 2018, 22:03

I say, I just thought of another potential issue. This isn’t really very difficult. :)

Surrender rate.
A curse of online games. So we have a new player with a bit of a “quitter problem”, “reliability challenged” shall we say.
He gets off to a poor start.

Currently, he can still make himself indispensable, can still get a result as good as anyone else. All he has to do is persevere & not quit. Just get in the draw somehow!
However under the new system his benefit is he is less likely to be whittled, but he’s 6th! Score for this one ain’t gonna set any records. In fact “why not quit now, barely anything lost anyway”.

Of course you could simply state it as a known fact that surrender rates improve with rank based draws, in which case I’m sure everyone will be reassured...

My point here, if it’s being missed, is messing with the scoring system, changes game objectives, changes participant behaviours, not always for the better. This isn’t a F2F environment with committed hardened Pro’s at Diplomacy. It’s an Online environment with all that comes with it, it has a large community (thankfully) and that might just be because we use draw size scoring. I don’t know? However it hasn’t been too difficult to find objections to making a change.
This has nothing to do with the points scored. It’s the behaviours being encouraged (& maybe ones we don’t want).
Last edited by V on 08 Jun 2018, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.
Platinum Classicist
Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished.
V
 
Posts: 739
Joined: 04 May 2014, 21:28
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1778
All-game rating: 1829
Timezone: GMT-7

Re: Ranked Draws & Rank-Based Scoring: Fibonacci-Diplo

Postby V » 08 Jun 2018, 22:09

In practice, in rank-based and lead-based systems, there is less kingmaking, not more.[/quote]

Well I suppose that’s a nice simple way to address the issue. State your preferred option as fact. Yep, we’ll go with that then. No concerns whatsoever...I suppose there’s less metagaming too & surrender replacements no problem at all. Fine, now that lots sorted.[/quote]

I should mention that my statement is backed up from discussions with persons heavily involved in running Diplomacy tournaments, particularly Dave Maletsky, who was previously the head of the North American Diplomacy Federation. I'm not just pulling it out of my ass. Multiple tournament venues switched from draw-sized systems to rank-based or lead-based systems, and over the past decade, they've seen improvement across the board in a number of areas. Kingmaking is one such area.

Surrender replacements are an issue that's more unique to the online medium, so I honestly have no idea how that's going to go. The rating shield tends to be the best incentive for people to play bad positions, since they have nothing to lose.

As for metagaming, I really wouldn't expect that to be much different than it is now.[/quote]

I think you answered my point excellently & to some extent as anticipated. Tournament Directors. Yep, I believe there is every reason why this scoring method is vastly superior in that environment. No contest.
This isn’t a Tournament. This isn’t a F2F venue. This is Online. I am happily finding potential problems every few minutes, surrender replacements, maybe kingmaking, surrender rates themselves, metagaming inducements. It’s not difficult. The wisdom of the Diplomacy Tournament Directors although sage, may not be very relevant.
Platinum Classicist
Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished.
V
 
Posts: 739
Joined: 04 May 2014, 21:28
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1778
All-game rating: 1829
Timezone: GMT-7

Re: Ranked Draws & Rank-Based Scoring: Fibonacci-Diplo

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 08 Jun 2018, 22:50

I just don’t understand the hand-wringing and doom crying.
The only way to know if a system like this would yield problems is to try it out with a critical mass of players. The history of scoring systems of this sort have been positive in other venues, so why do you seem so convinced that it shouldn’t even be an option here?
For someone who states they don’t care about points, you seem to be quite emotionally invested in how other people would like to play scored games.
Lead Volunteer Developer & Forum Admin

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
 
Posts: 2748
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (1466)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Ranked Draws & Rank-Based Scoring: Fibonacci-Diplo

Postby V » 08 Jun 2018, 23:20

NoPunIn10Did wrote:I just don’t understand the hand-wringing and doom crying.
The only way to know if a system like this would yield problems is to try it out with a critical mass of players. The history of scoring systems of this sort have been positive in other venues, so why do you seem so convinced that it shouldn’t even be an option here?
For someone who states they don’t care about points, you seem to be quite emotionally invested in how other people would like to play scored games.



Sorry. I absolutely never said it shouldn’t be an option. Read above to confirm this, if you wish. In fact as long as the “overhead” is not onerous & interest is sufficient I definitely think it should be tried (as an option).
I am concerned that your proposed change will have many adverse effects, some I’ve highlighted, there’s probably more yet to be discovered. My point is nothing to do with “hand wringing”.
My point is your proposed scoring changes alters game objectives (that’s why your suggesting them) which will alter behaviours & so far I think significantly for the worse.
Suggesting my motives for questioning the wisdom of these changes have something to do with Fucking score is disingenuous. How many more times do I have to say. It’s the behaviours encouraged, not the points scored.

There are endless ways of trialing the idea. Start a league using the system (a la mjparrett). Calculate the scores yourself & create a league table. See if you get a significant sign up for the league & thus the idea. Use it for a tournament as above.
Neither would require anything from PlayDip & go some way to demonstrating this is both worthwhile & without unseen issues.

Signing off. Didn’t like the personal nature of your last post & seeing as a I won’t be clicking that option of little relevance. If anyone’s “emotionally invested” I suggest you check that mirror.
Platinum Classicist
Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished.
V
 
Posts: 739
Joined: 04 May 2014, 21:28
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1778
All-game rating: 1829
Timezone: GMT-7

Re: Ranked Draws & Rank-Based Scoring: Fibonacci-Diplo

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 08 Jun 2018, 23:53

V wrote:Signing off. Didn’t like the personal nature of your last post & seeing as a I won’t be clicking that option of little relevance. If anyone’s “emotionally invested” I suggest you check that mirror.


My last remark was far too snippy, and for that I apologize. I am fully willing to admit that I'm emotionally invested in this, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I really think that making this option available would be of benefit to the game and to the site, particularly since it has a proven track-record elsewhere.

V wrote: It’s the behaviours encouraged, not the points scored.

I don't entirely disagree with you here; I just see them as inextricably intertwined. I don't see a difference in caring about the behaviors and caring about the points. I will fully admit, then, that I absolutely do care about points, less for my own Elo and more for how players behave in scored games. I sincerely believe that the change in behaviors in ranked games (versus draw-sized games) make the games more fun overall.

Start a league using the system.

This is actually something I'm already doing with a similar rank-based scoring system.
1) People have so far enjoyed the system.
2) Recruiting reliable players to try something new when it's not an official site option can be like pulling teeth.

I've seen players try out all manner of variants on the site using the official supported options, but as soon as you start making it something that requires reading the forum or PM-ing for a password... it's crickets. The old "just organize it yourself" solution ends up not being much of a solution at all, especially if what I'm looking for is a wider trial.
Lead Volunteer Developer & Forum Admin

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
 
Posts: 2748
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (1466)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Ranked Draws & Rank-Based Scoring: Fibonacci-Diplo

Postby boldblade » 09 Jun 2018, 04:43

Hmmmm I think you bullied him no pun. Way to go.
boldblade
 
Posts: 338
Joined: 05 Feb 2014, 17:33
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1474)
All-game rating: (1488)
Timezone: GMT

PreviousNext

Return to Suggestions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests