Option for max years

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Option for max years

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 06 Feb 2018, 20:47

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So, sometimes a single game can go on for far, far longer than you would expect. And for a mix of reasons, the game might not enter the sort of state where an admin can force-end it.

While I know this is a plus for some, it can be really frustrating to have to keep devoting weeks to a game that you don’t want to lose in but also lack the ability to bring to a close.

It would be nice to have an option during setup to set a maximum number of years for a game to last. If the game doesn’t end by that point, it terminates in DIAS.

Scoring-wise, there might need to be a rank-based division of points for set-length games, rather than sharing the draw equally, but even making this feature available to unranked games would be helpful.
Last edited by NoPunIn10Did on 15 Feb 2018, 20:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Option for max years

Postby Iggy » 06 Feb 2018, 21:10

Interesting idea as an option. Would have some interesting effects on games, I think, depending on game length. Namely 2 things I can think of off the top of my head:

1) Those not doing well fighting to stay alive until the deadline to share in a win they would normally probably never get.
2) Those doing better to be more aggressive to push their agenda as the deadline approaches.

I think this mostly probably only really applies to DIAS games anyway, right? A "normal game" could just be prematurely ended by offering up a draw if/when you are done but maybe not.
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Re: Option for max years

Postby Don Juan of Austria » 06 Feb 2018, 21:21

Cool idea.

Though if someone stabs for the lead (as opposed to an unobtainable solo), he might not finalize the last week of play, at all, as a means of staying in the lead/fewer turns get processed.
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Re: Option for max years

Postby Iggy » 06 Feb 2018, 21:28

Don Juan of Austria wrote:Cool idea.

Though if someone stabs for the lead (as opposed to an unobtainable solo), he might not finalize the last week of play, at all, as a means of staying in the lead/fewer turns get processed.


that's not a factor as suggested. he's suggesting the game end after X years, not a calendar end - for exaple, after 1910.
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Re: Option for max years

Postby NJLonghorn » 06 Feb 2018, 21:30

I don't see a problem to be cured ... but this would be the solution if there was a problem.

Don Juan of Austria wrote:if someone stabs for the lead (as opposed to an unobtainable solo), he might not finalize the last week of play, at all, as a means of staying in the lead/fewer turns get processed.


The OP is suggesting a fixed number of Diplomacy years, not a fixed period of real-life time. Thus, stalling wouldn't accomplish anything.
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Re: Option for max years

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 06 Feb 2018, 21:42

Iggy wrote:I think this mostly probably only really applies to DIAS games anyway, right? A "normal game" could just be prematurely ended by offering up a draw if/when you are done but maybe not.


Regardless of DIAS or not, though, you'd need some mechanism that actually enforces the draw. Normal games lack that capability. A single person who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to accept the draw can make it last indefinitely. As such, this really would be a new feature.

Iggy wrote:Interesting idea as an option. Would have some interesting effects on games, I think, depending on game length. Namely 2 things I can think of off the top of my head:

1) Those not doing well fighting to stay alive until the deadline to share in a win they would normally probably never get.
2) Those doing better to be more aggressive to push their agenda as the deadline approaches.


In face-to-face tournament games, when there's a set limit on game-years, there are typically some changes to the scoring system to compensate. On PlayDip currently, all draws are shared equally, which isn't necessarily the best outcome for a set-length game (particularly for reason #1). I didn't include the suggested scoring methodology that would go along with term-length games, as I didn't want to distract too much from the core feature request.

Largely what happens is that in term-length games, all draws really ought to be DIAS, and in a draw powers are scored according to their rank, which is determined by final SC counts or years of elimination. That discourages small powers from playing solely in a manner to drag out the game except where such play is required to stop a solo. And when said solo is perceived as unlikely by game's end, it encourages the players forcing the draw to jockey for position rather than simply hold the stalemate lines.

The enemy-of-my-enemy altruism of a typical solo-stopping game becomes far weaker once you're certain the solo has been stopped. :D There's also not much time left for kingmaking after a late-game stab.

If there's a solo, it's still winner-takes-all (or, in some systems, winner-still-takes-a-crapton-more-than-everyone-else).
Last edited by NoPunIn10Did on 06 Feb 2018, 21:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Option for max years

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 06 Feb 2018, 21:48

NJLonghorn wrote:I don't see a problem to be cured ... but this would be the solution if there was a problem.


It's definitely a different style of play, but I think it'd be helpful to the popularity of the hobby in general to have it as an option in more venues. The commitment to an epic, never-ending game of Diplomacy can be a pretty high barrier to entry. Term-length games are more accessible.

They're also particularly helpful for multi-game tournaments.
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Re: Option for max years

Postby Don Juan of Austria » 06 Feb 2018, 22:19

Iggy wrote:
Don Juan of Austria wrote:Cool idea.

Though if someone stabs for the lead (as opposed to an unobtainable solo), he might not finalize the last week of play, at all, as a means of staying in the lead/fewer turns get processed.


that's not a factor as suggested. he's suggesting the game end after X years, not a calendar end - for exaple, after 1910.


Oh yes...oops. Sorry. :oops:
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Re: Option for max years

Postby gareth66 » 07 Feb 2018, 01:07

I don't understand the premise of this suggestion. On what basis can there ever be an "expectation" of how long a game is going to take? It takes as long as it takes....that is always the deal, surely?
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Re: Option for max years

Postby Nibbler » 07 Feb 2018, 01:42

I'm a little perplexed about this. If the game is going on too long a draw is proposed and, if accepted, the game ends. In tournaments, there is usually a way of ending games before they're finished because of practical reasons: getting four or five games completed in a weekend is unrealistic otherwise.

What I'm really struggling with is the idea that these games should be scored differently. If a game ends without a result, then it's a draw. Draws aren't scored equally here, each player scores relative to his rating compared to others in the game. A 3-way draw doesn't mean everyone who draws gets the same points, just the same game result.

The point if games played here is that they aren't tournament games, though. They are one-off, stand alone games. There is no need for them to finish at a given year. If they did, they would be being played with different criteria to other games. They shouldn't affect the ratings at all.

If playing a game of Diplomacy is daunting, simply because it will take some time and commitment to finish, it's the wrong game.

Having said that, as a no rank option, it would introduce a different aspect. Not for me, and not ranked, but there would be some who would be interested, I'm sure.
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