WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby BlackAdder » 24 Feb 2008, 20:56

Hey,

Among other projects, I am working on developing an Elo style rating system specifically for use on this site.

Basic Example of Elo type Rating System

Player .. Game Start .. Winners... Post Game

Player 1 .. 1200 ..................... 1190 (-10)
Player 2 .. 1300 ......... W ........ 1325 (+25)
Player 3 .. 1400 ......... W ........ 1417 (+17)
Player 4 .. 1100 ..................... 1095 (-5)
Player 5 .. 1000 ...................... 999 (-1)
Player 6 .. 1250 ..................... 1235 (-15)
Player 7 .. 1205 ..................... 1194 (-11)

(Note I didnt use any algorithm here...its just an example)

In the above example, players lose different values of points based on the other players in the game. The larger the difference in rating the less points are removed. In total 42 points were removed and added. Player 2 earned more points for the win, since player 3 had a much higher rating. He shouldnt earn as many points for beating lower rated players.

I think there will be some statistical analysis applied to the algorithm as well.

Test Server
I am hoping to have a test server up within the next couple days. The test server would be open to anyone who wants to put the rating system through vigorous testing. I as soon as I have the algorithms modified to fit with diplomacy I will post a link to the documentation regarding testing. In order to simulate many many games, I will create a test file specification so people may create test files and upload them.

Cheers,
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby Chucobo222 » 24 Feb 2008, 22:08

I don't remember who mentioned it but the system that I liked best was that if you win a solo game, you get 34 points and all remaining players get nothing. If you win by DIAS, then all countrys still participating in the game get points equal to how many supply centers they have left. If you surrender out of any game then you lose points equal to the amount of supply centers you currently have left and if you are eliminated you recieve no points.

This allows a solo game to worth much more than a draw game since a solo game is generally a lot harder to win. Also, this puts a greater penalty for surrendering in a game, especially when you join a game and surrender because you don't like the country that you got.
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby BlackAdder » 26 Feb 2008, 01:07

Hey,

Check out the solution http://dipstats.markdaddario.com. It needs to be tested, thought over, maybe fine tuned but the idea is sound and the principle seems to fit very well.

Please let me know what you think.

Cheers,
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby Romain » 26 Feb 2008, 20:51

A problem I have with ELO system is that high ranked players do not want to play with low ranked players. Because if they win against low ranked players they will gain very little, but if they lose, they will lose a lot. I know some chess players that refuse to play in competition against players that are low rank.
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby BlackAdder » 26 Feb 2008, 21:27

You are looking at it slightly backwards.

You dont play games because of your rating, you play games because you like playing. If you win or lose thats the point of playing a game...the point of a rating is to give everyone a perspective of their own ability compared to the people they play against. If you are affraid to play games to protect any sort of rating your not playing for the right reasons.

Besides people should be trying to play with people who are close to them in rating...whats the fun in playing a bunch of newbies if your very experienced.
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby Romain » 26 Feb 2008, 22:56

I am not saying they are right or wrong, I am just reporting that some players refuse to play with lower rating players when an ELO system is used.

You can have a low rating because you are new on this site, but still be a very experienced player.
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby BlackAdder » 26 Feb 2008, 23:36

True enough.

I think that the benefits of elo over time out weigh the drawbacks. If youre good, you will have a good rating, if youre okay you will have an okay rating...if youre awful you will have an awful rating. Sure you may have good or bad games but it all evens out in the end.

I am very much hesitant to points based systems when you have the ability to play infinite games. Points works well in a sports season when you play the exact same number of matches as your opponents. When you want to have a true representation of your ability verses others, you need to look more than just the number of wins under your belt.
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby GeneralRye » 27 Feb 2008, 00:25

I think you should consider two rankings. One ranking based on earned points last year/six months or so - just like tennis - and one ranking based on average - ELO or something else. I would much rather play against someone who has finished 10 games so and so (eg won 3 out of 10 - which is quite ok), than someone who has finished two games against newbies, but with a higher ELO-rating, because he won both.
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby mdmuff » 27 Feb 2008, 01:11

Wouldn't you want "newbies" to be playing with a mix of expierenced players, so they can see different strategies and techniques used, or they will just continue to get crushed against a seasoned player who will played them based on ratings that are inflated from playing against poor competition?
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby Romain » 27 Feb 2008, 06:35

BlackAdder wrote:I am very much hesitant to points based systems when you have the ability to play infinite games.


I agreed, but with a system that sum all scores to zero (e.g. -10 for losers, +60 points for solo, +25 points for two-way draw, etc.) you need a lot of games and a positive average to accumulate high score.
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