WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby Avalanche » 19 Feb 2008, 05:38

Batsman wrote:Although it must be said - allowing Double and Triple victories with 18 SCs is also changing the rules of the game, which only allows for Single victories and DIAS.


Good point, didn't even know that.

What does DIAS stand for?
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby monaray » 19 Feb 2008, 06:44

I like the changes and think that this is a better scoring system than before. I'm just trying to understand that when these changes take place, all of the games will become the combination single/double/triple victory with the specified point values. If this is the case, then my suggestion would be to make two game types: single victory and the combination single/double/triple victory. I think letting people decide when to declare victory in the game is a good idea, but I still like the original single victory, where you know someone has to end up on top. The increased point values are a good incentive to keep playing, but I would still like to be in a game that I know will not end after just 4 turns with a triple victory.
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby Avalanche » 19 Feb 2008, 11:03

True, maybe, but the point of eliminating the victory setting was because sometimes the game drags on and on in a stalemate until someone ges bored and drops out of the game.
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby Medi » 19 Feb 2008, 22:49

Avalanche wrote:
Batsman wrote:Although it must be said - allowing Double and Triple victories with 18 SCs is also changing the rules of the game, which only allows for Single victories and DIAS.


Good point, didn't even know that.

What does DIAS stand for?


DIAS stands for "Draws Include All Survivors."

I would highly suggest implementing DIAS (or, at the very least, an option in which a draw includes all survivors except those who have surrendered) as a victory option, simply because it allows for numerically weaker countries with some tactical strength. For instance, if France has 17 centers, Russia 14, and Austria 3, under the proposed setup France and Russia will be able to declare a draw together, excluding Austria from the final tally. Under DIAS, Austria would have to be included in any draw. This seems unfair at first, but if Austria is so irrelevant France and Russia should be more than able to kick it off the board before a draw is obtained. And if Russia refuses to do so for fear that France will use the opportunity to snatch up an eighteenth supply center, then Austria has done a brilliant job making itself indispensable to both sides and deserves a share in the win.

(And, of course, this doesn't even begin to consider the ridiculous possibility of France and Austria excluding Russia from a draw...)

In addition (and this is just my opinion), it is essential that the scoring system be pretty much zero-sum, that is, that the same number of points be divided among the winners no matter how many there are. This makes a solo twice as valuable as a two-way draw, and three times as valuable as a three-way draw and that's how it should be, I think. (The theoretical best way to get closest to this is to make a win 1 point, a 2-way draw 1/2 point, a 3-way draw 1/3 point, a 5-way draw 1/5 point, etc., but that's overcomplicated and dumb, so something like a 6/3/2 split seems fine.)

(As a side note, the idea that surviving should be worth more than being eliminated seems somewhat dubious to me, but that's an entirely different issue.)
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby Avalanche » 19 Feb 2008, 23:25

Those are excellent points, Medi. Welcome to the forum!

I must admit you're right. The system outlined in the first post still has flaws and it seems like single victory and DIAS are the way to solve them.

There is still the matter of how points should be divided in this case.

If you go low in points (6/3/2) it doesn't really give incentive to go for a solo IMO, because the gains are too small for the tremendous extra effort of eliminating your opponent.

I would suggest dividing points like this:

solo: 12 points
2-way draw: 6 points each
3-way draw: 4 points each
4-way draw: 3 points each

12 is not dividable by 5, so I would set the limit to a maximum of 4 people included in the draw.

I like this system, because everyone has to agree before a game can end. Nobody has to swallow a decision made by someone else.

Oh, and also:
0 points for being eliminated
-1 for surrendering.

How about that?
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby Medi » 19 Feb 2008, 23:34

I like it!
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby infinity8ball » 20 Feb 2008, 22:24

Avalanche wrote:I left that out on purpose, because I don't like changing the rules of the game.

I will add that option later, when we go into creating "variants" (like fleet in rome, having 24 supply centers victory condition, etc.)

I think the incentive to keep playing (more than double your points) is good enough once this change is implemented.


Wait...
/looks at Diplomacy rule book

It says in my rule book that a victory can be declared by all players still ALIVE. That means the 18 supply center thing is only for solo, not for multiple player wins.

Which makes the rules of this site different than the board game.

**SORRY, didn't see the 2nd page of posts already pointing this out**
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby Batsman » 22 Feb 2008, 14:48

I would suggest dividing points like this:

solo: 12 points
2-way draw: 6 points each
3-way draw: 4 points each
4-way draw: 3 points each

12 is not dividable by 5, so I would set the limit to a maximum of 4 people included in the draw.


I think this is good - simple, and in the spirit of the original rules. Good one.
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby mdmuff » 22 Feb 2008, 16:28

infinity8ball wrote:Which makes the rules of this site different than the board game.


The rules for the game are one game specific and not set-up for a league or site such as this one.
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Re: WINNING THE GAME and SCORING POINTS

Postby Romain » 24 Feb 2008, 19:57

The proposed system will be a great improvement.

Personnaly, I think that it would be even better if you give a little incentive to restrict the number of players included in the draw.
Solo 60 points
2-ways draw 25 points
3-way draw 13 points
4-way draw 8 points

All players that did not participate in the draw get -10 points and players that surrender get -20 points.

Thus, a player who made three 3-ways will get less than a player making a solo. Which is the ultimate goal of the game.

The formula is simple, all winners get 10 points by eliminated players, divided by the number of winners.
(10 x number of eliminated players) / number of winners
So you can apply the formula to variants that do not have seven players. Just in case the site adopt other variants later.

I strongly feel that all survivors should agree on who should be included in the draw, but it does not mean that all draws should be DIAS. An hopeless power could agree to be excluded from the draw, just to save time. So we should have a voting system that include all survivors but that allows less players to be included in the draw.
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