Ambassador surrender

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Ambassador surrender

Postby ColonelApricot » 09 Nov 2019, 00:30

If a player in an ambassadors-only game surrenders then he is immediately demoted to diplomat level.

If he is playing in other ambassadors-only games then he is no longer eligible to be playing in those games. Therefore the player should be auto-surrendered from those games as well.

Although it could be immediately disruptive to those games it removes the likely risk that those games will eventually be damaged by a surrender of the same player and allows the other players time to arrange replacements that is better done sooner than later.

.. CA
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Re: Ambassador surrender

Postby Custer » 09 Nov 2019, 03:17

Here, here, I second that motion!

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Re: Ambassador surrender

Postby super_dipsy » 09 Nov 2019, 07:08

ColonelApricot wrote:If a player in an ambassadors-only game surrenders then he is immediately demoted to diplomat level.

Just to be clear, the current position is if an Ambassador surrenders in ANY rank/norank game he/she is immediately demoted to diplomat, it doesn't have to be an Ambassadors-only game. The only exception is if the player is on a streak of at least 10 full (started and finished) rank/norank games with no surrenders, then it is assumed there was some sort of genuine RL reason for the surrender and the player is given ONE life.

ColonelApricot wrote:If he is playing in other ambassadors-only games then he is no longer eligible to be playing in those games. Therefore the player should be auto-surrendered from those games as well.

I can see the logic. Not how it works today, but of course t could be changed if people think it a good idea :)
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Re: Ambassador surrender

Postby Tortellacci » 09 Nov 2019, 19:30

ColonelApricot wrote:If he is playing in other ambassadors-only games then he is no longer eligible to be playing in those games. Therefore the player should be auto-surrendered from those games as well.


This could work, but only if the phases in all auto-surrendered games are extended to find time for a replacement.
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Re: Ambassador surrender

Postby Zosimus » 09 Nov 2019, 20:01

I oppose the notion. The point of an ambassador's game is to reduce surrenders and NMRs. Having him auto surrender would disrupt the game and defeat the point of the ambassador game.
Be more aggressive.
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Re: Ambassador surrender

Postby ColonelApricot » 09 Nov 2019, 20:35

Based on an assessment of the last 3 pages of ambassadors-only games about 30% are affected by surrenders.

Zosimus: It is highly likely that when a player is auto-surrendered then his other active games will also be auto-surrendered but this won't occur until the end of each respective round. That means unnecessary delay and disruption to those games.

I am less certain about a manual surrender although I reckon the leopard doesn't change his spots.

Tortellacci: I agree that the standard post-surrender procedure should be followed.
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Re: Ambassador surrender

Postby Custer » 10 Nov 2019, 03:01

Tort.....agreed......and seconded......

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Re: Ambassador surrender

Postby Chundar » 10 Nov 2019, 18:48

I get where you're coming from, but I think this requires more nuance. The main questions are around surrender vs auto-surrender and deadline length.

For example, if our hypothetical player is in two games with 12-hour deadlines, it's quite likely that an auto-surrender in one will be reflected in the other. In fact, both auto-surrenders would likely happen at approximately the same time, so the proposal here wouldn't really help matters.

However, if I'm playing in two games with very different lengths - one with a 12-hour deadline and one with a 7 day deadline - then real-life may cause problems in the 12-hour game that wouldn't impact the 7 day game for that player. Forcing an auto-surrender of the 7 day game would be unnecessarily disruptive of that game. On the other hand, if the player just decided to stop playing Diplomacy in full, then this is an example that supports your proposal - there'd be time to find another player for the 7-day game.

Secondly, there's a difference between auto-surrender and surrender, and I'd like to understand which this proposal covers. An intenational surrender when down to a single, immobile unit isn't great sportsmanship, but doesn't necessarily indicate what will happen in a concurrent game.

Ultimately, I was under the impression that Ambassadorship is a carrot-and-stick approach. The carrot is that you can join games with other, presumably more reliable, Ambassadors. The stick is that you can't join Ambassador games if you lose Ambassadorship. Adding this tweak on the rule could be benficial or could be harmful, but I'd like to see some numbers supporting the hypothesis that a surrender in one Ambassador game is necessarily predictive of surrenders in other Ambassador games (ideally, with a breakdown based on deadline length differential) before taking a stand on either side.
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Re: Ambassador surrender

Postby ColonelApricot » 10 Nov 2019, 22:57

Chundar wrote:For example, if our hypothetical player is in two games with 12-hour deadlines, it's quite likely that an auto-surrender in one will be reflected in the other. In fact, both auto-surrenders would likely happen at approximately the same time, so the proposal here wouldn't really help matters.

Not so. If the second game has 11h to run when the first game auto-surrenders then it avoids 11h of delay in the second game which is quite significant in the context.

Chundar wrote:Secondly, there's a difference between auto-surrender and surrender, and I'd like to understand which this proposal covers. An intenational surrender when down to a single, immobile unit isn't great sportsmanship, but doesn't necessarily indicate what will happen in a concurrent game.

The proposal covers both types of surrender. It adds an incentive to avoid trivial surrenders such as the type of single-unit surrenders you allude to.
Chundar wrote:Ultimately, I was under the impression that Ambassadorship is a carrot-and-stick approach. The carrot is that you can join games with other, presumably more reliable, Ambassadors. The stick is that you can't join Ambassador games if you lose Ambassadorship.

This proposal makes for a bigger stick.
Chundar wrote:Adding this tweak on the rule could be benficial or could be harmful, but I'd like to see some numbers supporting the hypothesis that a surrender in one Ambassador game is necessarily predictive of surrenders in other Ambassador games (ideally, with a breakdown based on deadline length differential) before taking a stand on either side.


It's clear that in the case of a major RL event or sheer abandonment of the hobby that all active games by the affected player are going to be auto-surrendered.
Don't forget that many Ambassador-only games are Protected which means that the surrender has had an additional warning period before the auto-surrender so in such games the other players have already endured a significant delay. And if there are other active Protected ambassador-only games affected then these will also incur the additional painful delay.
Getting the statistics you ask for looks hard. I prefer to rely on a reasonable assumption: if a player has already abandoned his hard-won ambassador status willy-nilly then he is likely to care less about surrenders in his other active games.

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Re: Ambassador surrender

Postby Custer » 11 Nov 2019, 02:24

Yeah, I think it needs a feather.....LOL

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