No Draws Allowed games - Allow draws?

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No Draws Allowed games - Allow draws?

Postby super_dipsy » 10 Jun 2022, 13:53

I'm throwing this out to the community for views on an issue which has come up a few times recently and possibly changes we might make.

One game option (not available for ranked games) that can be chosen when creating a game is No Draws Allowed. This removes the ability to offer draws, making the game a shootout to the end - or at least that is the idea. People who hate draws like to play with this option, although I do understand it is not to everyone's tastes ;)

The issue that has come up recently is Mods have been asked to intervene and draw on of these games as a DIAS draw :shock: . In one case the game was at a 17/17 situation, and in the other there was a 3 way finish. In both games, players claimed they could not see any way to conclude the game as a solo. So the question is, should we alter the rules somehow to allow such games to be drawn? For example, we could make them a special case of Deadlocked Games Resolution rules - clearly they would not fit with the normal criteria, but there could be a special case ruling for NDA games. Or we could mercilessly hold the line that if you join a No Draws Allowed game then the implication is the game cannot be drawn. Another option I thought of was that if all parties want out, Mods could make the game a Friends game so it does not count in a player's game records.

Thoughts? Views? I'd be interested in particular to hear from people who do play these types of games, although all views are welcome.
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Re: No Draws Allowed games - Allow draws?

Postby Pops2112 » 10 Jun 2022, 14:36

I commented on one of these where the request was posted publicly as a Forum item. I note that your view in that case, which was also my view, that the game was not definitively deadlocked, proved true and a few rounds later a solo was duly achieved.

In principle, I would say there should be a Deadlocked Game Resolution procedure, concluding in a DIAS draw if the criteria are satisfied, for a No Draws Allowed game that can be shown to be definitively deadlocked. The subtlety is deciding how you define the criteria for the need to establish definitive deadlock - game really will never end unless there are NMRs. That would require an amendment to the DGR rules, or it might be cleaner to post a stand-alone DGR procedure for NDA games based on the existing DGR rules but adapted appropriately.

How big an issue this is, though, and whether therefore it warrants your time crafting a solution to it I have no idea. I have not played an NDA game myself and probably would not choose to do so even if a DGR procedure existed for such games.
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Re: No Draws Allowed games - Allow draws?

Postby Woolgie » 10 Jun 2022, 15:23

My suggestion is no supply centre changes for 4 consecutive years creates an auto-draw. Or at least makes the propose draw button appear.
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Re: No Draws Allowed games - Allow draws?

Postby Chairpusher » 10 Jun 2022, 16:13

Yuk, yuk and more yuk. The thought of slogging through some games I have played in. Where the Players are not friends and they will do anything to stop one another. No draw would be a complete nightmare. Draws cause discussion and Diplomacy, without it is just a boring version of Gunboat.
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Re: No Draws Allowed games - Allow draws?

Postby edmgrim » 10 Jun 2022, 20:49

Food for thought in this discussion: Perhaps some attention should be devoted to the issue of whether the players remaining are all original or replacement players. I would submit that any NDA game that has seen one or more players replaced due to Auto-Surrenders should automatically divert to version of Draws allowed (I would propose Open Ballot, Choose countries).
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Re: No Draws Allowed games - Allow draws?

Postby Latanst1 » 10 Jun 2022, 22:25

NEVER!

A strong player should be able to resolve deadlocks or convince their fellow players to fall on their swords. Once the rules are set, live by them and don’t bother the very busy administrators. Weak players will tire soon enough.
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Re: No Draws Allowed games - Allow draws?

Postby schocker » 11 Jun 2022, 18:18

If a game is stalemated then there should be a method of asking for termination if all parties agree. What difference does it make to anyone else?
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Re: No Draws Allowed games - Allow draws?

Postby HunsRus » 15 Jun 2022, 00:22

It sounds like there is already a mechanism to resolve these games in the form of the deadlock system. If everyone voluntarily joined a no draws allowed game, I think the deadlock system that already exists is sufficient. If players just agree to hold and finalize multiple turns in a row (if it is truly deadlocked), then that should end the game in a draw, no?
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Re: No Draws Allowed games - Allow draws?

Postby Pops2112 » 16 Jun 2022, 18:19

@HunsRus, I think not, which has led to this thread in the first place - the existing deadlocked games procedure has a requirement for a certain number of Draw proposals to have been made and rejected, so a No Draws Allowed game can never qualify, as things stand.
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Re: No Draws Allowed games - Allow draws?

Postby pompodopompom » 17 Jun 2022, 08:26

I really like this solution (posted in the initial thread, in the "Diplomacy rules questions" subforum).
It requires the implementation of the deadlock games resolution procedure, but without ending in a draw.

condude1 wrote:The solution that would, IMO, be most in-keeping with the spirit of no-draws games would be that, if no center changes hands for X (5?) years straight, the game is ruled as a loss for all players involved. It would add an element of diplomacy and brinkmanship to any drawish endgame, and would make for super cutthroat finishes.

Just thoughts!
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