AAR

[presser84]

I would have been limited in my army builds so an inland push didn't make much sense.

If you look at the Fall 1907 map, you will clearly see that precisely two of my SCs (Warsaw and STP) were not considered coastal from your home centers. So while you couldn't have eliminated me, you could've put me into a position where an opportunistic Germany or Austria could take out my vestiges.

I'd like this clarified. What do Warsaw and St Pete have to do with my home centers?

[presser84]

As part of this message, I looked back at the Fall 1907 adjudication and part of the problem with my stab was that France either did not get my message in time, didn't believe what I was saying, or chose not to follow through on the order of Gre-Aeg. As I knew you were ordering Aeg-Gre-Ion with strength 2, my supporting Gre-Aeg would have caused that to be a bounce and left Turkey with 4 SCs and 4 units and no build in Ank. Had that been the case, I would have been able to clean up much easier.

Also checking back again, the Fall of that stab France was down to precisely 11 supply centers (12 if my plan had gone through as I wanted). I believe we floated the number 13 before. Is that really a solo threat? I still can't see how Turkey thought I was betraying an ALA when there was no L.

Again, do not stab what you can not kill. The numbers were not relevant. I was going to be forced to ally with whoever would keep me alive. You showed no interest in that until it was too late.

Also there is a simple lesson you should have learned-do not stab what you can not kill. Granted you likely thought you could kill me off but all you did was leave me a wounded rabid dog looking for revenge against those who abused him. In the end you reaped what you sowed.

Now, under most circumstances I can accept a good, well played, stab. One that makes sense, even if I don't see it coming. I will even continue to conduct diplomacy with this type of player. However you seemed to reveled in the stab, laughing when I said I could give France the game. You challenged me by underestimating me. Combine that with no good faith discussion to follow. A bunch of "I'd work with you if only you were closer to death" messages. To me that is paramount to spitting in my face. Then allying with a single center Italy and continuing to try to kill me. I seriously do not understand how you do not consider yourself an utter diplomatic failure but continue to blame others for your loss.

I too would be interested to see the math in your head where you thought you could solo without ever attacking Austria.

[presser84]

Also I should mention the "personal" stuff

I don't take things personally in diplomacy. Ever. I will be harsh on players in game and in AARs but every game starts fresh for me. However, I do make notes about a player's capabilities that I carry game to game.

I know marsman is a calculating strategic thinking player. I think he miscalculated this game and is either ignorant, or feigning ignorance in understanding my responses, in and post game, so that he doesn't have to rationalize culpability for his contribution to this game's outcome.

[marsman57]

I said I was always playing to solo, not that I had a realistic plan y The game would have had to last until about 1920 for me to turn things around I imagine. I would have eventually attacked Austria more than likely but not before Turkey was out.

I meant that you didn't need armies to hit most of my centers presser.

As to the comments from haroonriaz, I do my best to put it all in the table each game. AardvarkArmy and I tried to ally in Lecrae14 after having a very publicly acerbic relationship in several AARs. It didn't work but that was because I overplayed my hands, nothing from prior games. I figure a player can change it maybe I will have changed our board position will reflect different behavior. I'd like to say I'd never have hard feelings about what happened in-game as it's just that. A game.

P.S. I'd say it's half that I underestimated presser and half I thought he'd change his mind if I appealed to the spirit of the game.

[presser84]

I meant that you didn't need armies to hit most of my centers presser.

right and I have no idea how this is possible unless you're referring to hyperspace links. How do I get to Warsaw and St Pete from Ankara and Const even if they are under water (which they weren't)?

P.S. I'd say it's half that I underestimated presser and half I thought he'd change his mind if I appealed to the spirit of the game.

You can't ask a player to die for you. Period. I consider it more against the spirit of the game to ever roll over and die. Now you could say I could have, as a single or dual center power tried to contribute to containing France. Again, I'm not playing towards the spirit of the game (a phrase I hate by the way) by moving a way that does not ensure my long term survival. If I see that I'm going to be draw whittled at best, then again, I'm playing to the spirit of the game and maxing my contribution by ensuring my sworn enemies suffer in the end.

Now, do I need to be as vulgar or obtuse about it? meh, that's debatable. Did you need to be a better diplomat with your calculations towards me? Yes. That's my point.

[marsman57]

I think you have it backward. I meant War and STP were the only two you COULDN'T get. I was saying I was fairly vulnerable to you even if you couldn't produce armies. Bte earlier in the game I tried to get Austria to make Black Sea land to help defuse this risk but couldn't comvince him it was worth it.

I know I bungled my diplomacy with youby being honest in my intentions. I hoped it would be more impressive than repeatedly lying... but it wasn't lol

[presser84]

I know I bungled my diplomacy with youby being honest in my intentions. I hoped it would be more impressive than repeatedly lying... but it wasn't lol

Still not the point I was making. It's not the honesty per say. It's that you can't expect any good diplomat to be amiable to your efforts when you present no value them proposition-no carrot. My response was always "Is there an offer in there?" This is my way of saying, don't message me unless ultimately you have terms in mind you wish to discuss. It's an insult to message a player and tell them you have no intention of staying your attack and offer some vague context where you might stop, mostly involving them being your puppet (potentially literally with the powers of A/G). When I said "Is there an offer in there or are you just whispering sweet nothings in my ear while you fuck me up the ass." I was saying, bluntly, don't PM me unless you are prepared to discuss terms. You got caught up on the language (which I think you are faking your insult about) and not what I was saying. You can't do that, especially when you are responsible for that players current dire situation, and then expect them to just jump to your cause in the end because YOU think it makes sense. That is your diplomatic failure. Not that you didn't lie to me, but that you failed to realize your honesty was worthless diplomatically and only throws salt in my wounds.

[marsman57]

Well, for what is worth, the late game Africa-plan was a real attempt. Either the ship had sailed at that point, or you realized, as did I when proposing it, that it wasn't a great plan. It was really the best I had though given the layout of the board after the Earthquakes. Oh well.

Nice exhaustive AAR from everyone here. I'm looking forward to our next game together.

[stalin813]

I am working on my rule set for VR 5. Should be done in about a week. Just need to figure out what to do if 7 players choose Insect....Laugh or Cry?