DoIaF AAR

GMd by presser84. Winner: Tagaryen (shockj)

Re: DoIaF AAR

Postby letram13 » 02 May 2013, 06:41

I do think there was probably more room to expand and maintain borders as the North especially with the vale to the South.

I think Kings Landing can put a target on people's back. But I think it should not be the same every game. In this game, everyone I talked to agreed that they feared the initial alliance of the Lannister/Baratheon in Kingslanding. They seemed natural allies since they shared the Kingslanding and so all the other players consciously worked together to neutralize them. Not to be mean, but I think it was a failure of diplomacy on their part. They should have sought a third ally, stabbed each other... or they were just out of luck if the other players just wanted to take them out.

But after this one game, I feel like it was personalities that determined the outcome, not necessarily the map, but then again obviously more games will yield more insightful results.

P.S. Presser, that map gif is amazing.
Lord Rickon Stark and his loyal Shaggydog in Diplomacy of Ice and Fire
Sultan of The Ottoman Empire in History of the World
Russia in 1700 Diplomacy Variant

GM of Ancient HOTW

Timezone - Pacific GMT -8
letram13
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 20:00
Location: Pasadena, CA
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1127)
All-game rating: (1134)
Timezone: GMT-8

Re: DoIaF AAR

Postby shockj » 02 May 2013, 07:55

That map GIF is amazing.

As far as the game itself goes, I think it was a bit imbalanced. The mountains should most likely go. I also really don't like this as a map where 17 centers wins. Obviously certain things broke in my direction and I got a bit of luck, but I felt like if there were a "stalemate line" on the map, its definitely down the middle, and as an eastern naval power, you'd think I should have to take some center further west than Yronwood or Harrenhal.

I was also continually surprised at how most everyone on the map built so many armies, when in actuality, there are so few non coastal SCs, that it never truly seemed worth it to me. Obviously as an "island" nation, my view of the situation may be skewed, but I think the map could be expanded to include a few more "interior" centers in the middle of the map, to cause powers to mix it up a bit more, and to add a second dynamic to the map.

I knew at the outset that if I could control the Narrow Sea, I'd end up no worse than a two way draw, and I was right about that.

Wi'll post a further AAR about the game itself shortly.
Slay classy.

Washington wrote:Shockj has been known to go rouge on occasion
User avatar
shockj
 
Posts: 833
Joined: 10 Dec 2008, 09:13
Location: New Orleans, LA
Class: Ambassador
All-game rating: (1000)
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: DoIaF AAR

Postby letram13 » 02 May 2013, 17:07

shockj wrote:I knew at the outset that if I could control the Narrow Sea, I'd end up no worse than a two way draw, and I was right about that.


Now I wish I had targeted you at first to see if I could have upset this assumption. :lol:
Lord Rickon Stark and his loyal Shaggydog in Diplomacy of Ice and Fire
Sultan of The Ottoman Empire in History of the World
Russia in 1700 Diplomacy Variant

GM of Ancient HOTW

Timezone - Pacific GMT -8
letram13
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 20:00
Location: Pasadena, CA
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1127)
All-game rating: (1134)
Timezone: GMT-8

Re: DoIaF AAR

Postby Stanislaw » 02 May 2013, 17:41

I did not take part in this game but I followed it closely and I have a few thoughts:

First I think the river mechanism is not needed. It opens more centers to being controlled by sea when they are already plenty. I also think there is a big focus on the east and west coast where the Greyjoys and Targeryens clearly are in the best place to benefit from that focus. Some more centers in the center of the map may help change that and improve balance, maybe in the area around the Reach and the Westerlands? Another idea is maybe have the Greyjoys start with 2 units to reflect their lack of resources compared to the other houses but that seems a bit too harsh.

But as Presser mentioned the map doesn't necessarily need to be balanced. When for example all the Greyjoy's neighbors know they have a lot of potential they are more likely to band together and go after him, so the Greyjoys have to tread carefully and make sure that alliance doesn't materialize.

Thanks for the gif presser.
When you play the game of thrones you win, or you die, there is no middle ground.

Platinum member of the Classicists
User avatar
Stanislaw
Premium Member
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 16 Feb 2012, 02:55
Location: CT, USA
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1393)
All-game rating: (1413)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: DoIaF AAR

Postby presser84 » 02 May 2013, 18:28

re:17 center victory condition and Kings Landing

The original game had 33 centers with KL being a "single unit double center." With a 17 center VC this meant that playing for a 2 way draw was impossible as a 17/17 split couldn't happen. The original rules for KL were that you had to hold it for 2 years to gain it "Fully" (presuming you had no portion previously). So you could move to KL (the single center,there was no coast designation) and if you held it in the fall you would choose which side you take during the build phase. If you held one side already then you could take the whole thing by indicating such in the build phase. If you previously held neither side, you would choose. I believe, the rules were silent about choosing not to take a portion and be a "placeholder" or if you held one side already, electing not to take the other (now that I'm thinking about it, personally I like the idea of a placeholder being supported with the idea of trusting them not to take over while your unit is not there to protect the capital. A stewardship of sorts where you could theoretically take control while the King was off fighting another war).

I felt this was a little too complicated to adjudicate on first blush and changed it to a double center with equal adjacency. This was meant to open up more the options of a Lannister/Baratheon stab as well. By doing this I added a center so the total went from 33 to 34. Thus a 2 way draw is now theoretically possible and it changes the dynamic of KL.

So did this change the diplomacy that was conducted and overvalue/devalue King's Landing? Should I have made the VC 18 centers (out of 34) so that a 2 way was impossible (I honestly thought I had but I doubled checked and it was still 17)?

re: navies

In theWesteros Diplomacy variant I designed I emphasized armies and a push to the center. (I also attempted to give Greyjoy options to open both north or south. In this variant south seems the more prudent direction). Except for Greyjoy who obviously was designed to be more naval but would ultimately need armies to make any mid-game headway. I agree that this variant dictated more naval involvement, and thus Greyjoy and (if unmolested) Targaryen had an advantage.

PPE re:rivers
They were not used much but I still kinda liked the option. Like that Highgarden could be attacked by a fleet sailing up the river.

For those of you that played both my Westeros variant and DoIaF, which one would you like me to GM next? I guess that can be an open question to everyone too. Also if I do this one again should we try it with the original rules regarding KL and see if there are any changes to the dynamic?
Westeros Diplomacy - GM/creator
Diplomacy of Ice and Fire 2 - GM
Keirador wrote:Stop being a dickasaurus rex.
User avatar
presser84
 
Posts: 4327
Joined: 21 Dec 2010, 23:05
Location: New Jersey, USA
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1460)
All-game rating: (1678)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: DoIaF AAR

Postby Stanislaw » 02 May 2013, 20:48

I think the original KL rules sound better. Makes King's Landing of more value as one centers opposed to just being two connected centers. It makes KL important both as needing it for a solo victory and making it a valuable center to have in that it's one space that counts as 2 SCs.

I don't really have a preference for which variant as they both look good in different ways, I just really want to play the next Ice&Fire game as I'm a big Ice&Fire fan if my sig didn't get that away. ;)
When you play the game of thrones you win, or you die, there is no middle ground.

Platinum member of the Classicists
User avatar
Stanislaw
Premium Member
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 16 Feb 2012, 02:55
Location: CT, USA
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1393)
All-game rating: (1413)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: DoIaF AAR

Postby Zadaron » 02 May 2013, 23:50

I didn't really think of it beforehand, but after i was assigned Lannister and started analyzing my position more deeply i felt that it was very vulnerable. If i had played Tyrell i would almost certainly have sent a fleet into the sunset sea and one army north, and indeed that's just what Blackfish did. Greyjoy, even if he had decided to be friendly with me, would send a fleet into Ironman's Bay which he might try to sneak into Casterly Rock. Baratheon could've sent an army into the Stormlands to try to secure King's Landing, and it would have little consequence for him if i was busy in the west.

Anyway, i did my best to make friends with my neighbors. My provisional plan was to try and grab some centers in the Riverlands in the first year then try to make a pact with Martell and/or Baratheon to push into the Reach. Sadly Grejoy decided to join Tyrell and go for my lands. Fortunately Baratheon left my half of King's Landing alone, and through skill or luck i was able to hold on to my territory for the first year. Nevertheless, noone was rushing to aid me, and the Stranger soon caught up with me.

I felt that this fate was hard to escape as Lannister. I would be interested in playing this map again and see if someone else can fare better though! I'd love to see the dynamic regarding King's Landing with the original rule, i was sad to see it removed!
Genghis Khan wrote:The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters
User avatar
Zadaron
 
Posts: 417
Joined: 12 Oct 2012, 23:43
Location: Skövde, Sweden mostly, sometimes Halmstad, Sweden
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (991)
All-game rating: (1416)
Timezone: GMT+1

Re: DoIaF AAR

Postby Blackfish » 03 May 2013, 00:34

ViscountSlim wrote:For those of you that played both my Westeros variant and DoIaF, which one would you like me to GM next? I guess that can be an open question to everyone too. Also if I do this one again should we try it with the original rules regarding KL and see if there are any changes to the dynamic?


ViscountSlim is very keen on playing either variant. He told me so himself. He seemed to express preference towards playing this variant.


Sorry for not posting an AAR yet, I've been busy, and frankly, it's a pretty big AAR.
It'll be up soon

:D
Last edited by Blackfish on 03 May 2013, 10:05, edited 1 time in total.
"You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war." - Plutarch

Game History
User avatar
Blackfish
 
Posts: 1592
Joined: 28 Oct 2012, 05:46
Class: Ambassador
All-game rating: (1000)
Timezone: GMT+10

Re: DoIaF AAR

Postby letram13 » 03 May 2013, 02:46

Is this in the rules? I was thinking having control of Kings Landing being a requirement for victory might be an interesting idea.
Lord Rickon Stark and his loyal Shaggydog in Diplomacy of Ice and Fire
Sultan of The Ottoman Empire in History of the World
Russia in 1700 Diplomacy Variant

GM of Ancient HOTW

Timezone - Pacific GMT -8
letram13
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 20:00
Location: Pasadena, CA
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1127)
All-game rating: (1134)
Timezone: GMT-8

Re: DoIaF AAR

Postby Stanislaw » 03 May 2013, 02:58

It certainly would make sense from a lore point of view but it might be hard for certain powers to take and hold King's Landing, such as the Greyjoys while other Houses near by have an easier shot at it. Despite that I'm all for it being a victory condition.
When you play the game of thrones you win, or you die, there is no middle ground.

Platinum member of the Classicists
User avatar
Stanislaw
Premium Member
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 16 Feb 2012, 02:55
Location: CT, USA
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1393)
All-game rating: (1413)
Timezone: GMT-5

PreviousNext

Return to Game 1

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest