No draws allowed

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Re: No draws allowed

Postby GPD » 10 Sep 2017, 23:20

super_dipsy wrote:...a lot of games would be pointless after the first few years for some players. People who have no chance of soloing would be quite likely in my mind just to jump ship since they have 0 prospect of anything, even if they team up to force a stalemate.

If they jump ship, then someone might solo, therefore losing them points, thus giving them a reason to continue.

super_dipsy wrote:An interesting idea, but doesn't that hit the rating system? What you are doing is limiting the 'risk' part of the risk/reward equation. I would think strong players would always choose solo only games; they know that if they are playing lesser opposition, a draw will usually lose them points, but by playing solo only they are protected from that because as long as they do not actually lose, they are guaranteed not to lose any points, even if it is a 5 way draw. It feels like you are having your cake and eating it, doesn't it?

It seems to me that being able to play every game for a three way draw is having your cake and eating it. You can presently go up the rankings without ever winning a game.
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby StarWatcher009 » 11 Sep 2017, 01:32

GPD wrote:It seems to me that being able to play every game for a three way draw is having your cake and eating it. You can presently go up the rankings without ever winning a game.


No because there comes a point when you start to lose points for threeways.
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby super_dipsy » 11 Sep 2017, 06:48

I think there is some confusion here.

GPD wrote:
super_dipsy wrote:...a lot of games would be pointless after the first few years for some players. People who have no chance of soloing would be quite likely in my mind just to jump ship since they have 0 prospect of anything, even if they team up to force a stalemate.

If they jump ship, then someone might solo, therefore losing them points, thus giving them a reason to continue.

I am not sure whether you are taking this out of context; you do realize this comment was about changing to a system where there is no reward for anything but a solo? My point was that if the only thing that gets you credit is a solo, then as soon as you conclude you are not going to win, then since you can get no points you are more likely to quit. If instead you are making the point that in effect by perhaps increasing the chance someone else will solo the quitting player will lose points, that is a weak argument at best. In our current system, if someone solos I lose points against everyone else. If I quit from a game in a system where only solos get points then even if it results in someone getting a solo it only means ONE other person gets points relative to me.

GPD wrote:It seems to me that being able to play every game for a three way draw is having your cake and eating it. You can presently go up the rankings without ever winning a game.

StarWatcher009 wrote:No because there comes a point when you start to lose points for threeways.

StarWatcher is totally correct. This point also came up in some other points, so let me stress it. You can of course go up the rankings without ever winning a game, as GPD says, because against opposition at your level or higher getting a 3-way draw will gain you points. But this quickly runs out. As an example, a player of rating 1400 who gets a 3-way against 6 other players rated at 1000 will LOSE points for the 3-way. If you have a 1500 player playing against 6 1000 players, even a 2-way draw will lose points. This is an essential part of the system. It is my belief that this point combined with the fact that a solo on Playdip is NOT just a 1-way draw but scores higher are why we have a higher solo percentage than what is often reckoned as the 'norm' for Diplomacy. Pundits tell me the norm is in the range of 1 in 3 for games ending in solos, but here it is almost 60%.

As a check, I hunted out the highest rated person who has never won any games. That person has a rating around 1250. I think that is a good sanity check that although you CAN rise a little way in the ratings without soloing,you quickly hit the limit.
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby rd45 » 11 Sep 2017, 10:15

asudevil wrote:games should only (IMO) be able to end in a draw if its truly stalemated...too many carebear draws on this site.


super_dipsy wrote:Pundits tell me the norm is in the range of 1 in 3 for games ending in solos, but here it is almost 60%.


So... which is it? Too many draws, or a really unexpectedly high percentage of solos?
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby GPD » 11 Sep 2017, 13:45

super_dipsy wrote:I think there is some confusion here.

GPD wrote:
super_dipsy wrote:...a lot of games would be pointless after the first few years for some players. People who have no chance of soloing would be quite likely in my mind just to jump ship since they have 0 prospect of anything, even if they team up to force a stalemate.

If they jump ship, then someone might solo, therefore losing them points, thus giving them a reason to continue.

I am not sure whether you are taking this out of context; you do realize this comment was about changing to a system where there is no reward for anything but a solo? My point was that if the only thing that gets you credit is a solo, then as soon as you conclude you are not going to win, then since you can get no points you are more likely to quit. If instead you are making the point that in effect by perhaps increasing the chance someone else will solo the quitting player will lose points, that is a weak argument at best. In our current system, if someone solos I lose points against everyone else. If I quit from a game in a system where only solos get points then even if it results in someone getting a solo it only means ONE other person gets points relative to me.

GPD wrote:It seems to me that being able to play every game for a three way draw is having your cake and eating it. You can presently go up the rankings without ever winning a game.

StarWatcher009 wrote:No because there comes a point when you start to lose points for threeways.

StarWatcher is totally correct. This point also came up in some other points, so let me stress it. You can of course go up the rankings without ever winning a game, as GPD says, because against opposition at your level or higher getting a 3-way draw will gain you points. But this quickly runs out. As an example, a player of rating 1400 who gets a 3-way against 6 other players rated at 1000 will LOSE points for the 3-way. If you have a 1500 player playing against 6 1000 players, even a 2-way draw will lose points. This is an essential part of the system. It is my belief that this point combined with the fact that a solo on Playdip is NOT just a 1-way draw but scores higher are why we have a higher solo percentage than what is often reckoned as the 'norm' for Diplomacy. Pundits tell me the norm is in the range of 1 in 3 for games ending in solos, but here it is almost 60%.

As a check, I hunted out the highest rated person who has never won any games. That person has a rating around 1250. I think that is a good sanity check that although you CAN rise a little way in the ratings without soloing,you quickly hit the limit.


I think you are the one taking things out of context, if you are talking about switching to an entirely different system of scoring. All I am saying is this can be an option, and in this proposed option you can lose points as well as gain. If you lose the game to a solo, you lose relative to everybody else on the site, along with the other five who lose. And just because nobody has got higher than 1250 points by drawing, doesn't mean you can't. What is the theoretical limit? If someone draws all their games against higher ranked players?
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 11 Sep 2017, 16:20

I think one element that that hasn't been mentioned here is that some of Diplomacy's overall balance depends on draw frequency as well as solo frequency.

This isn't to say that classic Diplomacy is fully balanced anyway, but if you take away draws as a viable option, the balance curve shifts pretty starkly.
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby GPD » 11 Sep 2017, 19:02

NoPunIn10Did wrote:I think one element that that hasn't been mentioned here is that some of Diplomacy's overall balance depends on draw frequency as well as solo frequency.

This isn't to say that classic Diplomacy is fully balanced anyway, but if you take away draws as a viable option, the balance curve shifts pretty starkly.

We're not talking about classic diplomacy. This is a variant.
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby super_dipsy » 12 Sep 2017, 06:30

rd45 wrote:
asudevil wrote:games should only (IMO) be able to end in a draw if its truly stalemated...too many carebear draws on this site.


super_dipsy wrote:Pundits tell me the norm is in the range of 1 in 3 for games ending in solos, but here it is almost 60%.


So... which is it? Too many draws, or a really unexpectedly high percentage of solos?

:oops:

Excellent spot rd45! I never even released that sentence could be read two ways!

What I MEANT to say (but failed dismally to :roll: ) is that on Playdip the percentage of (ranked) games soloed since we changed the scoring system to an elo-like one with the additional solo incentives has been 60%, compared with a hobby 'average' (I suspect a rather subjective number, but generally seems to be accepted) of 30-40%. We have a lot more solos than 'the norm' in other words.
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby asudevil » 12 Sep 2017, 07:17

rd45 wrote:
asudevil wrote:games should only (IMO) be able to end in a draw if its truly stalemated...too many carebear draws on this site.


super_dipsy wrote:Pundits tell me the norm is in the range of 1 in 3 for games ending in solos, but here it is almost 60%.


So... which is it? Too many draws, or a really unexpectedly high percentage of solos?


The draws that ARE draws...are a lot of carebear draws...not truly fought out to a stalemate.
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