No draws allowed

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No draws allowed

Postby SteveHybrid » 10 Sep 2017, 09:39

Hello,

Does anyone know the reason that you can't play a ranked game that has no draws allowed? I would think more ranked than unranked games would want this option as it's more of a challenge.

I'm sure there is a reason for it, but I couldn't find anything when searching the forums. Anyone have an idea?
-Steve
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby rd45 » 10 Sep 2017, 10:03

I guess it's because the ranking system here is essentially built around draw size - with a win being a special-case draw, of size one. So a game with no possible draw isn't a great fit for that system.
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby Strategus » 10 Sep 2017, 13:31

http://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=124
See this forum. There is a lot of debate, as to whys and wherefores. But at the end of the day there doesn't seem to be the appetite for this. So not enough of a lobby to change anything. If there were, it could be viewed as a valid variant, like fog of war etc, since all players agree to the condition by joining the game that they either get a solo or lose.
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby SteveHybrid » 10 Sep 2017, 14:17

Thanks. Yeah, GPD it doesn't look like there's enough traction for it.

@rd45 - I thought of that too. Interesting stuff.

Well, thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.
-Steve
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby asudevil » 10 Sep 2017, 15:39

It really has minimal to do with the scoring system, but with no draws allowed, people play differently. And if at the end of the game, its a stalemate and they can't figure out who wins. We literally will run an RNG to give someone the win if they can't figure it out themselves. But playing a NDA game, really changes the dynamics of how it is played and so it was determined that it wouldn't be good for ranked games.
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby Strategus » 10 Sep 2017, 15:45

asudevil wrote:It really has minimal to do with the scoring system, but with no draws allowed, people play differently. And if at the end of the game, its a stalemate and they can't figure out who wins. We literally will run an RNG to give someone the win if they can't figure it out themselves. But playing a NDA game, really changes the dynamics of how it is played and so it was determined that it wouldn't be good for ranked games.

Now that there is a standard rating and an all games rating, there is no reason why it couldn't be classed as a variant, and so included in the all game rating, but not the standard one. Zero points for a draw, and an agreement to "end" the game (all survivors).
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby asudevil » 10 Sep 2017, 17:24

GPD wrote:
asudevil wrote:It really has minimal to do with the scoring system, but with no draws allowed, people play differently. And if at the end of the game, its a stalemate and they can't figure out who wins. We literally will run an RNG to give someone the win if they can't figure it out themselves. But playing a NDA game, really changes the dynamics of how it is played and so it was determined that it wouldn't be good for ranked games.

Now that there is a standard rating and an all games rating, there is no reason why it couldn't be classed as a variant, and so included in the all game rating, but not the standard one. Zero points for a draw, and an agreement to "end" the game (all survivors).


In which case...you played a ranked game...and it draws...its better to lose to a draw...than a solo...
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby asudevil » 10 Sep 2017, 17:25

And again...we wouldn't have the game "end" with 0 points...we would randomly pick a solo winner.
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby Strategus » 10 Sep 2017, 17:32

asudevil wrote:And again...we wouldn't have the game "end" with 0 points...we would randomly pick a solo winner.

Why?
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Re: No draws allowed

Postby super_dipsy » 10 Sep 2017, 19:39

GPD wrote:
asudevil wrote:And again...we wouldn't have the game "end" with 0 points...we would randomly pick a solo winner.

Why?

Allow me to clarify.

As has been said, this is nothing to do with the scoring system. As a digression, I feel I should clarify that the assertion our ranking system is based around draw size with a solo being a special case draw of size one is just plain wrong. However, back to topic :)

The real reason is the one Asu brought up. When we introduced 'no draws allowed' games, we immediately found ourselves getting dragged in to sort out games where it was a draw. Players would come to us asking us to close the game down as a draw because otherwise it would just go to the player who was prepared to stick it out the longest and wait for someone else to give up out of sheer boredom. Now this put us in a quandary; what do we do? The players deliberately asked for a game where no draws were allowed. And now they are asking for a draw.

After some thought, we decided the only option was to choose a winner. We can't make it a draw because that breaks the conditions of the game created, but it is also unreasonable to make people play on until someone gets so bored that they give up. So as Asu says, when this situation occurs we simply say we will choose a player and make them the solo winner. Some players do not like that, but there is no other option I can see; the game system would not be happy with games where are there are no winners or drawers. So therefore, we cannot allow these as ranked games because arbitrarily deciding a winner clearly damages the integrity of the scoring system if the game is ranked.

The added advantage is that if the game is unranked, it is less likely we even have to get involved. People will probably just give up anyway once it is stalemated to someone will win by default

I hope that makes sense! We couldn't see any other sensible alternative.
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