DoIaF2 GameA AAR

GMd by presser84. 2-way draw between House Stark (rayezilla) and House Martell (Stanislaw)

DoIaF2 GameA AAR

Postby presser84 » 08 Aug 2013, 17:21

this game certainly ended in a way I did not expect.

A 2 way Draw between House Stark and House Martell (rayevilla and Stanislaw)

Final center count was 15 (16 units) 13 (14 units) 4 (4units) with KL staying Neutral. Had Martell taken KL in the Fall, and it was unstoppable, he would have won 17, 14, 2 (or there about).

Fascinating display of ____________ by Stanislaw. You fill in the blank ;)

Congrats to the Winners. I feel like the rules and map for this variant have been pretty well solidified now with the clarifications that I've put together regarding Kings Landing. It should be runnable by any GM on a regular basis should there continue to be interest.

I think from running both A and B of it we can tell that there are 2 allliance combinations that likely are "more difficult to manage" than others. Greyjoy/Lannister and Baratheon/Martell. That said, I do not feel that this overly imbalances the game, just that it's something that players should be aware of.

I will update this with an animated gif of the maps when I get home.

But feel free to discuss the game, your strategy, air out any grievances, ask questions, give thoughts on the map and variant, and/or summarize your play here in an AAR.

Thank you to everyone who took over surrendered positions and those of you who stuck it out.

The gif that was promised

Image
Last edited by presser84 on 09 Aug 2013, 00:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DoIaF2 GameA AAR

Postby marsman57 » 08 Aug 2013, 17:56

There isn't a lot for me to say for my AAR in this game. I joined in what I knew to be a pretty hopeless position between two major powers. If I had an army or two it might have been different, but with only fleets there was no way I was going to be able to make significant headway. Also, I could tell that Stark and Martell were extremely close allies. Therefore my only hope was to try to push them apart by convincing each that the other was going to solo. Meanwhile, I tried to forge an alliance with a dying Tyrell in hopes that we might be able to set up a decent enough defensive front that Stark and Martell might challenge one another.

Alas, all of this was a non-starter. Tyrell was an unreliable ally and quickly NMRed out of the game. Also, my plans to cajole Martell into a draw backfired pretty epicly. He felt his position in the game was strong enough that we could afford to casually reject any proposals. Also, his code of honor in the game abhorred kingmaking threats and thus he decided he would rather lose than accept a draw including a minor player like myself. As a person I respected that, though I lambasted him about it pretty repeatedly from my position as a player in the game... mainly because such a draw was my only option other than complete defeat.

I had hoped when push came to shove that he would have accepted, but alas I was unable to convert my alliance with Stark into any potential for Stark victory mainly because Stark did not trust me enough in the beginning, and then for whatever reason was unwilling to make riskier moves in Spring AL307 that could have opened up a chance to retake Kings Landing.

After Spring I quickly entered Fall orders that were essentially all of my units bowing fealty to Martell as I saw no reasonable way for him to not get to 17 that season.

I quickly rejected draw proposal #6 because I was insulted that my ally in Stark would throw me under the bus as such, but then Martell's reply of acceptance immediately after my rejection changed my thought. I could not have him come into this AAR saying "Oh I wanted to draw but Greyjoy was too petty to accept". I needed him to show that he was going for the solo (something I long suspected was his real goal).

Instead... he utterly surprised me by accepting the draw. I understand being honorable to your allies, but I'm honestly incredibly disappointed. The game was effectively over. There was nothing to gain by holding to your agreement. There was nothing to lose either by tabling the draw until after AL307 Fall processed. I can't ponder why so many people don't play to win. Sure, you sometimes have to play to the draw when you are in a poor position that can't make any headway (hi!), but to grab defeat from the jaws of victory. That's just... lame. Sorry, but it is. Draws are not wins.

Edit: Fascinating display of weakness by Stanislaw.
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Re: DoIaF2 GameA AAR

Postby Stanislaw » 08 Aug 2013, 22:01

This was quite the fascinating game and I very much enjoyed it. I'l start my AAR to answering the question I knew would come up-why accept the draw when you knew you could win? Well several reasons. First off I felt Rayevilla had played well and should be in the draw with me. Second the only reason I was in a position to win was coming to an agreement with Rayevilla that I'm sure was very hard for him to accept-giving up King's Landing. And third I just really didn't want to betray Rayevilla. I know fully well diplomacy is the game of no honor and backstabbing but I felt this time I wouldn't do that. I must say it was a hard choice though-one move and I would have taken KL.

@marsman57: you are defiantly right, I utterly went against that quote, and I can understand your frustration but in the end sometimes sharing the draw with a long time ally is alright.

So onto my thoughts from throughout the game:

First off I saw Targaryen and Baratheon as threats I had to get rid of given they both need to dominate the narrow sea which I needed to do having made a non aggression pact with Tyrell early in the game. I was fortunate in having a Baratheon player who didn't go against me. I risked losing the Sea of Dorne to get 2 builds in the first year and it payed off. From there it was easy to make a move on the Targaryens especially given the Baratheons and Starks were more than happy to help out.

As the Targaryens quickly fell and I took my piece of their territory I knew I would have to strike the Bartheons soon. Stark was allied with him as well but he seemed happy to betray him, but I was wary of Stark at this point as I didn't want him driving too far south. So I jumped the gun and attacked the Bartheons before Stark was ready which worked out well, and with a little Tyrell help I got all of the Baratheon home centers by the time the Targaryens were finished off.

Up to this point the Tyrells had been good allies but I knew I would have to choose between them and the Starks. I started with staying with the Tyrells, but it quickly became clear there was no chance of breaking through the blockade the Starks had around the narrow sea. So as the game came to a Greyjoy/Stark vs Martell/Tyrell alliance I knew I wasn't going to get anywhere while I was allied with the Tyrells. So I made a move on him, and surprisingly he would rather give me his centers then let Greyjoy take them. That worked out very well for me, as by the time the Tyrells changed their mind I had mostly finished them off.

At that point I thought it was be an easy road to victory with the Starks, who by now I was more than happy to share a draw with, as Letram13 was busy with RL and not very into the game. But the situation quickly changed when marsman57 took over as he was determined to cut his way into the victory. I found that admirable, but I hate a kingmaker player who arrives late to the game, so I was not going to let him influence me choices. I kept pushing north, not really sure where to go from there until Presser announced the rule change regarding KL. From their it wasn't hard to forge a deal with the Starks, though it took a lot of trust on his part as if he choose to block me off from KL I would never be able to take it.

So I must say I somewhat regret not taking the solo, but I'm sure Rayevilla doesn't, and more importantly it was a really fun game. As a huge Song of Ice&Fire fan I really enjoyed playing as my favorite House.
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Re: DoIaF2 GameA AAR

Postby rayezilla » 08 Aug 2013, 23:32

I started the game with the realization that naval power was going to be a huge deciding factor. House Targ's victory in the first game was a shining example of this, as was the previous Stark's decision to attempt to grind through battle with Greyjoy. I decided to take an eastern bent, and talk very nicely to House Targ, hoping that they would feel less threatened by me and decide to expand south instead of north. That would guarantee me control of the valuable BRAV sc.

The Early Game

My talks with Greyjoy went very well. He was a smart and insightful player, very excited about the setting, and in love with the idea of a 'Theon/Rob' alliance. It was a simple plan, he was to fall south on the Lannisters like a brick, and I would do the same to Targ. We'd meet in the middle.

On both fronts we did very well. Lannister formed a desperate alliance with Greyjoy after Greyjoy and Tyrell managed to take a lot of lannister land. He had nowhere to expand to. Targ was set upon by Baratheon and Martell, and when I built a fleet and sent it to BRAV as well, I think he realized that his doom approached. I made it to the center faster than Greyjoy, who had taken a less scorched earth policy with Lannister in order to slow Tyrel's growth. Who knows, if I had done the same with Targ, maybe we could have forced martell back as well.

The Greyjoy stab of Lannister was a work of art: Greyjoy had been very accommodating, and Lannister trusted him a little too much.... With intimate knowledge of Lannisters moves, Greyjoy and I claimed three of his centers in a single fall turn strike. Also a very well played stab was the martell/tyrell stab on Baratheon. Martell and Tyrell did a very good impression of two countries at war, and Baratheon overextended in order to 'assist' martell. He took the full brunt of both countries and was quickly eliminated.

The Mid Game (The Cold War)

With Baratheon, Targ, and Lannister eliminated, the 2v2 stalemate began. The Stark/Greyjoy and Martell/Tyrell alliances went back and forth with little gain except the Stark capture of King's Landing from Tyrell. My once bountiful road of the Eastern Sea was stalemated, and it seemed unlikely that I would make any more gains there. The amount of exhortations to stab each other was huge, but we stayed a stable group for nearly a month of real time play. It might have ended a stalemate except for Greyjoys sudden NMR and public announcement that he was leaving. I thought the game was up, but I managed to convince Martell to stab Tyrell as I claimed Greyjoy's centers. Things were looking really well for me, with open Greyjoy cooperation, until the new Greyjoy leader took over. Suddenly I was being stonewalled, and a series of misorders meant that my growing power was now being stifled.

The End Game

With Tyrell's fast surrender, the final phase of the game began. Stark had 13 SCs, and Martell's rapid gain had placed him at 13 SCs as well. Greyjoy remained the only non-major power on the board, and basically played the role of kingmaker. For whatever reason, he decided to slow my growth ("defending himself" some might call it), indirectly choosing Martell as the victor.

Only Martell's gracious sense of chivalry preserved my place in King's Landing.
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Re: DoIaF2 GameA AAR

Postby marsman57 » 09 Aug 2013, 14:14

Stanislaw wrote:I found that admirable, but I hate a kingmaker player who arrives late to the game, so I was not going to let him influence me choices.


For what it's worth, I would have played the position the same had I been in the game from the beginning. Of course, I'd like to hope I'd never get myself into that position to start with. :)

rayezilla wrote:For whatever reason, he decided to slow my growth ("defending himself" some might call it), indirectly choosing Martell as the victor.


Well, things got very complex when Martell refused to accept the draw. I needed to keep my word to be your ally or anything else I said in the game would be empty and meaningless posturizing. At the same time, I still was hopeful that I might push the game into a position where I would have 1 SC surrounded by Martell and Stark forces on each side stalemated, especially if both Stark and Martell were serious about not wanting to stab the other and solo. The rule change about KL made this a bit more complicated to achieve though as they could have an even split without me.

Furthermore, the way the Iron Islands are surrounded by only three sea spaces actually made it exceedingly difficult to actually hand over SCs. I couldn't figure out how to get my fleets out of the way! Also, at the best count, giving away all my SCs to Stark only put him at 16, thus it seemed pointless to perform a handover that would require him to put builds away from the front when I already had units right on the border.

The game was effectively over when he screwed up the TWN movement and couldn't drop a build in CAST. Now seeing how much Martell and Stark were still negotiating, was that an intentional misorder?
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Re: DoIaF2 GameA AAR

Postby rayezilla » 09 Aug 2013, 14:47

no, that misorder hurt... the negotiating thing was that I intentionally allowed him to take KL. That backfired when he also took LAN..
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Re: DoIaF2 GameA AAR

Postby Stanislaw » 09 Aug 2013, 23:04

Yes I would have never taken KL had Stark not agreed to let me. Once I took it though I knew the game was basically in my hands as Rayevilla was not going to be able to keep Lannisport.
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Re: DoIaF2 GameA AAR

Postby backpackerallan » 12 Aug 2013, 17:31

Targaryen

Well i was out fast.
I pick Targ because i thought if i could make some builds i would be able to hold the position and one day push west.
That was not an option when obviously everyone allied to take me out. obviously because of how targ did last game. I was a real Austria in this game. It was nice though.
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