Modern Extended Diplomacy - Design Thread

This is the place for games which are currently being created and developed, and where the designer is listening to feedback from other players. The game is not ready to play, and the designers are not looking for sign-ups - indeed, they may have no intention of GMing the game themselves when it is finished. But your input is welcome!

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Re: Modern Extended Map

Postby Antigonos » 02 Jul 2015, 02:08

The Rhone–Rhine Canal is a significant waterway of France, that can be considered to connect the Rhine and the Rhone and thereby the North Sea and the Mediterranean.

There are a number of parts to the canal:

a) The 224-km-long Canal du Rhone au Rhin connects from the Saône near Saint-Jean-de-Losne through to Mulhouse. It incorporates river sections of the Doubs.
b) The 13-km-long large-scale Embranchement Kembs-Niffer (formerly part of the Canal de Huningue) that continues the canal and which connects the docks at Mulhouse with the Grand Canal d'Alsace, which is the lateral, canalised Rhine, at Niffer.
c) The 29-km-long section, formerly part of the Northern arm of the Canal du Rhone au Rhine, that connects from the Rhine near Boofzheim to Strasbourg. The intervening section, between Boofzsheim and Mulhouse has been closed to navigation.
d) A 3-km-long section of the former Canal du Huningue, from Niffer to Kembs


Does this canal route that connects the Rhine with the Saone and the Rhone connect in turn with the Canal du Midi? Though this system would not accommodate warships of any significant size I agree it would be fun to work on the assumption that it does.

I like the idea of extending the map in southern Africa but I wonder if South Africa should be added as a player.
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Re: Modern Extended Map

Postby joe92 » 02 Jul 2015, 12:21

Well I'll be, there is one! My mistake. With the Europa canal using the Rhine as well this would connect the two canals and could create quite an interesting aspect to the map.

I'll look into adding that one as well. Give me some time to update the map for the canals and rivers but if there are other ideas please post them!
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Re: Modern Extended Map

Postby Sanguinem » 29 Aug 2015, 09:45

This looks like one I designed way back in 1998: http://variantbank.org/results/rules/p/ ... urope2.htm

I had extensive talks with the creator of the original Modern variant, Vincent Mous to make sure it was balanced and used many many mathematical formulae (which, admittedly, were mostly pulled out of my posterior) to help correct minor imbalances. I also used his criteria for the numbers of SCs each power got (30million people for 3 SCs, 55million for 4 SCs). I probably spent at least 100 hours tuning and fine-tuning :) Labour of love, I guess.
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Re: Modern Extended Map

Postby Pedros » 29 Aug 2015, 12:56

I've no comments on the map in general; there are a huge number of Expanded Europe maps and most of them have problems of balance, too much space etc, but whether this one shares them I don't know.

But I wanted to make two comments on the Canal du Midi. The first is that in making a dip map, keeping it close to reality (for the sake of it) is BAD NEWS! The map needs to provide good problems to deal with and good opportunities; if it does that it's good, if not it's bad.

But the second - not particularly in reference to this map, but maps of Europe in general (including Classic) The idea of a second waterway connecting the Atlantic and the Med could be fantastic, completely changing the game. Not for every map - it would certainly transform the strength of the nations in Classic - but where it works. Coming (possibly) towards the end of a game of War in the Americas where the Great Lakes and the Mississippi/Missouri played a pivotal role the idea excites me - in fact I might put up a trial game using just that. Why have I never thought of it before?
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Re: Modern Extended Map

Postby joe92 » 03 Sep 2015, 20:13

Sanguinem. I had no idea you had made such a similar map and wish in no way for my version to offend you. It is certainly not the same (I opted not to use Nigeria) but the similarities are there.

Pedro. Thank you for the feedback. Others had brought up the Canal du Midi and I settled on the idea of adding it. The latest edited OP shows my rendition of this canal (along with the White Sea canal and some rivers in central Europe). I would love to hear any more thoughts you have.

-----

Sorry for the long time it's taken to finish this map. I've unfortunately been too busy this summer to get round to it till now.

In this latest map I have added 2 canals. The Canal du Midi as suggested by MinnesotanKaiser and others, and also the White Sea Canal.
I have also added the Europa canal in the form of the 3 rivers which create it (thank you for the idea Guns of Brixton) along with a further river, the Rhone, to create the Rhine-Rhone canal as suggested by Antigonos. Hopefully, this creates a whole new dynamic to warfare in central Europe, which to be honest I'm not entirely sure how it would pan out. A game may be in order...

Could add the Nile and Niger rivers in Africa if people think that would be a good idea and the Tigris river in the Middle east as well.

As always, I really appreciate the feedback (good or bad) and so would love to hear some responses to the latest version of this map.
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Re: Modern Extended Map

Postby Antigonos » 03 Sep 2015, 20:51

Thanks for the thanks. I like the additions and am interested how this all will actually play out.

I think the Tigris might be pushing it as a waterway for warfare though in purely game terms a nice idea. But I certainly would add the Nile and maybe the Niger and Congo.
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Re: Modern Extended Map

Postby joe92 » 03 Sep 2015, 23:01

The Nile would definitely be interesting to add to the map, splitting in two in Sudan into the Blue Nile to Ethiopia and the White Nile to South Sudan and Kenya. The problem with the Nile would be where it joins the Med, it's very tight round there already so it would be a squeeze. Also, as it would become the border between Al Kharija and Aswan there would be issues of confusion with fleets entering Aswan from either the Red Sea or the Nile and wanting to continue to the other. Making it clear that this isn't possible may be a problem (using coastal notation maybe? EC, WC, R for River).

The Niger would look like it was protecting WAA, wrapping around it almost entirely. It would have a similar problem as the Nile in that it starts in Sierra Leone and passes through Guinea before entering Mali, Niger, Nigeria and emptying into the Gulf of Guinea. A fleet in the upper Niger may move to Guinea and then want to move to the South Atlantic Ocean. As with the Nile, it would need to be made clear this cannot happen.

Both of these rivers would look good on the map but would they add much in terms of strategy? They both suffer from the same problem, there is only 1 way to get onto the river. Egypt would control the Nile to start and WAA would control the Niger.

Although perhaps to increase the chance of conflict the fleet movement described above could be allowed. A fleet in the upper Niger could move to Guinea and from Guinea to the South Atlantic ocean and vice versa. It certainly doesn't make sense carrying a warship over the land like that but in terms of the game maybe it could be allowed. A fleet in the Red Sea could move to Sudan and from Sudan it could move to the upper Nile, the White Nile or the Blue Nile in this scenario. Hmm...
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Re: Modern Extended Map

Postby ferdy0 » 03 Sep 2015, 23:58

Antigonos wrote:
The Rhone–Rhine Canal is a significant waterway of France, that can be considered to connect the Rhine and the Rhone and thereby the North Sea and the Mediterranean.

There are a number of parts to the canal:

a) The 224-km-long Canal du Rhone au Rhin connects from the Saône near Saint-Jean-de-Losne through to Mulhouse. It incorporates river sections of the Doubs.
b) The 13-km-long large-scale Embranchement Kembs-Niffer (formerly part of the Canal de Huningue) that continues the canal and which connects the docks at Mulhouse with the Grand Canal d'Alsace, which is the lateral, canalised Rhine, at Niffer.
c) The 29-km-long section, formerly part of the Northern arm of the Canal du Rhone au Rhine, that connects from the Rhine near Boofzheim to Strasbourg. The intervening section, between Boofzsheim and Mulhouse has been closed to navigation.
d) A 3-km-long section of the former Canal du Huningue, from Niffer to Kembs


Does this canal route that connects the Rhine with the Saone and the Rhone connect in turn with the Canal du Midi? Though this system would not accommodate warships of any significant size I agree it would be fun to work on the assumption that it does.

I like the idea of extending the map in southern Africa but I wonder if South Africa should be added as a player.


Following this I think it might be interesting to have two ship types

1)
Large
- cant fit through river systems (or canals?)
- can convoy
2)
Small
- can fit through river systems
- can't convoy

or some adaptation of this

Re South Africa

Maybe only the tip (and one or two non sc provinces/waterways)? and give the player solamia, CAR and Cape point?

after all adding to much to the south just retracts from the north

or make Cape point like gib in the other map - giving the ability to allow/reject access to the waters
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Re: Modern Extended Map

Postby Antigonos » 04 Sep 2015, 01:32

ferdy0 wrote:
Antigonos wrote:
The Rhone–Rhine Canal is a significant waterway of France, that can be considered to connect the Rhine and the Rhone and thereby the North Sea and the Mediterranean.

There are a number of parts to the canal:

a) The 224-km-long Canal du Rhone au Rhin connects from the Saône near Saint-Jean-de-Losne through to Mulhouse. It incorporates river sections of the Doubs.
b) The 13-km-long large-scale Embranchement Kembs-Niffer (formerly part of the Canal de Huningue) that continues the canal and which connects the docks at Mulhouse with the Grand Canal d'Alsace, which is the lateral, canalised Rhine, at Niffer.
c) The 29-km-long section, formerly part of the Northern arm of the Canal du Rhone au Rhine, that connects from the Rhine near Boofzheim to Strasbourg. The intervening section, between Boofzsheim and Mulhouse has been closed to navigation.
d) A 3-km-long section of the former Canal du Huningue, from Niffer to Kembs


Does this canal route that connects the Rhine with the Saone and the Rhone connect in turn with the Canal du Midi? Though this system would not accommodate warships of any significant size I agree it would be fun to work on the assumption that it does.

I like the idea of extending the map in southern Africa but I wonder if South Africa should be added as a player.


Following this I think it might be interesting to have two ship types

1)
Large
- cant fit through river systems (or canals?)
- can convoy
2)
Small
- can fit through river systems
- can't convoy

or some adaptation of this

Re South Africa

Maybe only the tip (and one or two non sc provinces/waterways)? and give the player solamia, CAR and Cape point?

after all adding to much to the south just retracts from the north

or make Cape point like gib in the other map - giving the ability to allow/reject access to the waters


I was thinking along somewhat similar lines with the waterways but in reverse. Some or most of the river/canal systems could be used to convoy troops perhaps at accelerated rate but would not have the draft for "capital" warships to pass through. Some like Kiel could accommodate both.

Much earlier in the discussion I almost posted a note about including southern Africa but understand that it might be too much so I think the idea of at least including the Cape is very clever.
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Re: Modern Extended Map

Postby ferdy0 » 04 Sep 2015, 08:50

Antigonos wrote:Much earlier in the discussion I almost posted a note about including southern Africa but understand that it might be too much so I think the idea of at least including the Cape is very clever.


the south africa bit was more in relation to joe92's comment (thus why underlined) not specifically to continue your discussion on the issue (if you posted one)
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