NMR's in Forum Games

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NMR's in Forum Games

Postby AardvarkArmy » 20 May 2009, 05:51

I am currently in three Forum Games (Imperial, South American and American) and all three are having the same two-part problem:

A) Multiple players are going NMR, and B) the Hosts are letting them slide.

This is an EXTREMELY bad precedent to be setting for Forum games on this site. I have seen multiple postings in which Master radishes and others have touted the virtues of Forum games for having the more reliable players, yet what I am seeing is very much the opposite. Indeed, it has become nearly impossible to keep track -- and frankly, to maintain interest -- in these games because the 48 hour cycle becomes 72, then becomes 5 days, then again, and again.

There are several reasons why Hosts absolutely should not bend for NMRs:

1) Plain and simple, bending for NMR's rewards bad behavior and punishes good behavior: the slower folks get more time to communicate, to plan, to do all the tings that should result in better moves. It is "Behavior Mod 101" that if people benefit from a behavior, it will continue with greater frequency.

2) Judging the reliability of one's fellow players is part of the game. Have an ally who goes NMR? Learn not to be allies with that player again. Have a neighbor that one thinks may be going NMR (due to lack of communication or otyher clues)? Attack! Dealing with the NMRs of allies and enemies alike is part of the game...and the one going NMR should suffer the brutal consuquences.

3) Granting "after the fact" delays can actually do harm to the responsible player. Here is just one scenario:

--- A) My neighbor has been incommunicado, and I think they may be going NMR for a second or third time this game
--- B) I decide they are unreliable as an ally but a juicy target as an enemy, so I launch a set of attacks that assume no support orders
--- C) I submit my orders just before deadline, then don't check back to the Forum Board for 25 hours
--- D) I am correct -- they do NMR
--- E) Host, trying to be "nice" announces that he will grant an ex-post-facto 24 hour extension
--- F) Slacker turns in orders 21 hours late
--- G) Results are posted 24 hours after the original closing time, that I had relied upon
--- H) I look an hour later and discover, to my horror, that I just launched a war against someone who had all of their centers supported

This is just one of several possible scenarios where the responsible player can be screwed by an "ex post facto" delay. Perhaps just after the order deadline, I sent a "declaration of war" to an enemy, or tipped off a third party regarding my moves, and they in turn leak info to my intended target.

Granting Ex Post Facto delays is just a completely, totally bad idea.

When I sign up for a website game, I know that it has a 12 or 24 hour cycle -- I agree to that, and if I miss a deadline, I face the consequences.

Most of these Forum Games -- which, supposedly, are populated by the better and more reliable players -- have vastly slower schedules: typically 48 or 72 hour moves. But, again, every player who joins knows the cycle time up front, and agrees to it when joining the game. Players should face the same consequences for NMR in a forum game that they face in a website game.

If a player needs a delay, they should ask in advance, it should be authorized by the Host in advance, and ALL players should be notified well in advance of the deadline, so that ALL players benefit equally from the extra time. If we are just going to make a habit of stooping to the "lowest common denominator" then reliable players will lose out to unreliable ones and Forum Games are going to be a mess.
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Re: NMR's in Forum Games

Postby Master Radishes » 20 May 2009, 05:59

AardvarkArmy wrote:I have seen multiple postings in which Master radishes and others have touted the virtues of Forum games for having the more reliable players, yet what I am seeing is very much the opposite.

Let me be clear here - I do not mean these type of forum games when I say that. I mean games set up on the forum by forum regulars, like invitationals and such. Unfortunately, my term "forum games" to describe such games was stolen by the fad of variant maps hosted on the forum, and so now I'm reduced to explaining it in other terms, to avoid confusion.

No, I don't mean to tout the virtue of the forum variant games. They do feature plenty of NMRs, and it can be a problem. GMs need to be strict about them. Or rather, they need to be strict about who they allow into games. That's why for World Dip last time, we made sure every sign-up was vouched for by a trusted site regular - and hey look, no NMRs for most of the game. (A few near the end, though.)
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Re: NMR's in Forum Games

Postby AardvarkArmy » 20 May 2009, 07:01

Ahhh, I see, Master Radishes. I didn't know there was a different genre. But, all 30 sub-threads under "Forum Games" refer to various variants. Where do I find this other type of "Forum Game" that you are referring to, with the more reliable players? And how is "World Dip" fundamentally different than, say, "Imperial" or "Colonial?" More to the point, how do I know if I am getting into a game with reliable players?
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Re: NMR's in Forum Games

Postby The Doctor » 20 May 2009, 14:13

A couple of things:

First, when you are signing up for a game, make sure the GM has listed restictions regarding who may or may not enter the game. THings such as 95% consistency rate, less than 5 surrenders, and even 100 or more posts, perhaps in addition to Radishes' established vouch. Given these things, you're a lot less likely to run into NMRs and GM problems. Also, try and keep an eye for forum variants that have well-known players joining or running them (Dip, Radishes, sroca, lotr, etc.).

Secondly, in the defense of South American, I made a note originally when I set the game up that I would be granting delays to ensure that we had orders in for the first three years. Now that those years are up, there will be no more delays, as I mentioned in a post yesterday on the South American forum. In regards to the delay for the Spring 1904 Orders, which, based on what I said earlier, should have been processed immediately, I only recieved your orders on time. Would you seriously prefer a game in which you were the only player moving around to one in which you have to actually talk to other people? (Not that you need to in South American, since you'll have a solo at the end of this year most likely)

Finally, I will go and make a post in Youngstown/Eurasian stating that there will be no late orders accepted. GMs get just a frustrated as loyal players by repeated NMRing. Also, If you have a problem regarding GMing in the future, I reccomend you bring it to the GMs in question first before opening it up to the forum as a whole.
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Re: NMR's in Forum Games

Postby deanchuk » 20 May 2009, 15:10

The Doctor wrote:A couple of things:

First, when you are signing up for a game, make sure the GM has listed restictions regarding who may or may not enter the game. THings such as 95% consistency rate, less than 5 surrenders, and even 100 or more posts, perhaps in addition to Radishes' established vouch. Given these things, you're a lot less likely to run into NMRs and GM problems. Also, try and keep an eye for forum variants that have well-known players joining or running them (Dip, Radishes, sroca, lotr, etc.).

Secondly, in the defense of South American, I made a note originally when I set the game up that I would be granting delays to ensure that we had orders in for the first three years. Now that those years are up, there will be no more delays, as I mentioned in a post yesterday on the South American forum. In regards to the delay for the Spring 1904 Orders, which, based on what I said earlier, should have been processed immediately, I only recieved your orders on time. Would you seriously prefer a game in which you were the only player moving around to one in which you have to actually talk to other people? (Not that you need to in South American, since you'll have a solo at the end of this year most likely)

Finally, I will go and make a post in Youngstown/Eurasian stating that there will be no late orders accepted. GMs get just a frustrated as loyal players by repeated NMRing. Also, If you have a problem regarding GMing in the future, I reccomend you bring it to the GMs in question first before opening it up to the forum as a whole.


Yes, there are alot of not reliable players on this site.
but in your way Doctor, just make all their units hold can ruin the game.
lets say the nmr players ally is now going to lose because of this not reliable player.
i do suggest GMs\Hosts policy on this should be that:

terms for joining the game:
1)95% consistency rate
2)less than 8 surrenders
(and if its a noob explaine about the site and about nmr and every thing and if he looks ok add him as well)

in the game:
1) If a player is nmr twice his out of the game
2) dont post nmrs, call emergency calls, or what ever! nmrs will just ruin your game!

this is just an idea, GMs can allsow ask each player, "what player do you most trust to write your orders when your nmr" and then, give the nmr 2-3 hours after the deadline, and if not, ask the player he most trust (ally!) to do it for him, then it wont ruin his ally\alliance game, and if he picked the wrong person... its like a stab, and not like an nmr :) (tell the players to pm it to you in the start of the game and when it changes)
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Re: NMR's in Forum Games

Postby dilip » 20 May 2009, 16:41

Players should just enter prelims more.
What we could have, is mandatory prelims sent in within 24 hours (or any time frame) after the previous turn's results are posted. This would give GMs some orders to put up. Those orders would be more reliable than emergency generals since they were submitted by the same player.

AardvarkArmy wrote:Where do I find this other type of "Forum Game" that you are referring to, with the more reliable players?

The games forum has games being set up by forum users
When arousing a tiger, do so with a long stick- Chinese proverb
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Re: NMR's in Forum Games

Postby The Doctor » 20 May 2009, 16:57

AardvarkArmy wrote: --- A) My neighbor has been incommunicado, and I think they may be going NMR for a second or third time this game
--- B) I decide they are unreliable as an ally but a juicy target as an enemy, so I launch a set of attacks that assume no support orders
--- C) I submit my orders just before deadline, then don't check back to the Forum Board for 25 hours
--- D) I am correct -- they do NMR
--- E) Host, trying to be "nice" announces that he will grant an ex-post-facto 24 hour extension
--- F) Slacker turns in orders 21 hours late
--- G) Results are posted 24 hours after the original closing time, that I had relied upon
--- H) I look an hour later and discover, to my horror, that I just launched a war against someone who had all of their centers supported

This is just one of several possible scenarios where the responsible player can be screwed by an "ex post facto" delay.

How is this any different from someone picking up a surrendered position in an onsite game right before the dealine and moving to cover all their centers to bounce you out? You are relying on people not playing in forming your strategy, which seems completely backwards.
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Re: NMR's in Forum Games

Postby AardvarkArmy » 20 May 2009, 17:20

Would you seriously prefer a game in which you were the only player moving around to one in which you have to actually talk to other people? (Not that you need to in South American, since you'll have a solo at the end of this year most likely)


OF COURSE I would prefer the later. In the South American game, I had initiated conversations with both other players this turn -- one for a cooperative move, the other for a DMZ -- and neither one responded. I initially took the failure to respond to mean that they were ganging up against me (the logical thing for them to do), but now that they failed to submit orders, there is a very different "logical' interpretation: With me just 2 centers from solo, it seems more likely that the NMR's represent players who have lost interest, who are no longer enthused about "going through the motions." I am angry about this precisely because I did not want to "win at any cost" -- their NMR's are stealing away the thrill of reaching 13 through a hard fight. Perhaps my request to go ahead and NMR them is not "logical" in that regards, but it is coming out of frustration....

How is this any different from someone picking up a surrendered position in an onsite game right before the dealine and moving to cover all their centers to bounce you out? You are relying on people not playing in forming your strategy, which seems completely backwards.


What is "different" is that, in this case, it is the one who NMR's who pays the consequences -- a completely fair and logical outcome. What is "backwards" is that such a strategy should even be possible -- that is, I could only dream up such a strategy if a given player already has a track record of going NMR, and I believe it is likely to be happening again. If players had a more universal understanding that going NMR would result in harsh outcomes, this problem would go away. I do believe in the effectiveness of behavior modification -- if players suffered the consequences of an NMR one time, they would be far less likely to let it happen again....

I am sympathetic when players NMR because of a family emergency or something of that nature, but given the high number of NMR's that I am seeing in every forum game that I am in, I don't believe for one minute that that is what is happening. I think players are just losing interest and losing track -- and that is a vicious cycle that is likely to be exascerbated by letting NMRs slide...
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Re: NMR's in Forum Games

Postby Waterice man » 20 May 2009, 17:23

Extensions in Imperial only last for ~3 hours, and orders are often submitted by EGs. DO NOT assume that someone will NMR
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

The word 'surrender' derives from old French
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Re: NMR's in Forum Games

Postby AardvarkArmy » 20 May 2009, 17:23

Just as an aside -- I have seen numerous posts lamenting "someone picking up a surrendered position in an onsite game right before the dealine ."

How is this done?

I have joined a number of surrendered games, and I don't see how/where one can see the "deadline" until AFTER one has committed to joining. How are players seeing the game clock before they are in?
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DRAWS
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