For discussion: What happens if one unit is ordered twice?

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For discussion: What happens if one unit is ordered twice?

Postby Pedros » 12 Aug 2012, 19:42

A recent case highlighted the urgent need for a clear rule in all Forum Games if the same unit is given two different orders in the same set of orders. I have introduced the following temporary rule to apply in all new and currently active games unless the GM has included a different rule in the House rules for the game (nb - a different rule applies in all my games!)

I am not claiming it is the best rule (see below), but 'ambiguity' fits the rules we already play with and so is the simplest temporary rule to apply. However, other alternatives are possible (some are listed below) and I would welcome discussion about them. If a consensus emerges fairly quickly then I will simply make that the regular default rule; if not we may be reduced to a Poll (although I'd prefer not to.) The views of all FG players and GMs are more than welcome.

The temporary rule:-
If two different orders are included for the same unit, then they are ambiguous and will both be invalid. Note that if the two orders are effectively the same (eg Hold and Move to its current space) then they are not considered "different orders"


Other alternatives which I have seen GMs use are that the first order listed will be used, and the last one used will be used.
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Re: For discussion: What happens if one unit is ordered twic

Postby BigBert » 12 Aug 2012, 19:56

I agree with the current rule.
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Re: For discussion: What happens if one unit is ordered twic

Postby asudevil » 12 Aug 2012, 20:01

I concur that any time the same unit has two different orders, they are both invalid and the unit holds.
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Re: For discussion: What happens if one unit is ordered twic

Postby Willie900 » 12 Aug 2012, 20:01

My opinion is that the last order given in the message should be accepted, and others ignored. I say this because it is parallel to the rule with giving new orders with new messages, which is to use the new orders.

I imagine that a player may decide to change orders while writing a message, and write a new order for the unit, while accedentally forgetting to delete the old one.

Not that it's a big problem--I'll just apply mine as a house rule in my games!

Just my two cents
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Re: For discussion: What happens if one unit is ordered twic

Postby UpQuark » 12 Aug 2012, 20:08

I tend to agree with the temporary rule, but I also lean strict in a number of cases. In the example given, the result would be a Hold regardless of whether the "ambiguous" order were allowed or not. Make one of them a convoy or a support order, and a player may very well feel the pain from that mistake.

Some people like to give weird orders in place of a Hold order - in the pbm world this could be used to pass messages and some games/GMs would not repeat the order - simply issue a GM adjudicated Hold. In regular games I repeat the order but adjudicate Hold.

I do not see why it is controversial to adjudicate ambiguity strictly - the player should spend sufficient time to enter orders carefully, as the GM dedicates significant time to adjudicating. It is not the GMs role to interpret the orders, or worse, the intent of the player. I allow small, unambiguous spelling mistakes, especially as we are often using variant maps with unfamiliar abbreviations/territory names.

Now in a case where 2 territories have similar abbreviations (say 1 letter difference), and one is given 2 orders and the other not ordered, in most cases the GM could figure out the correct order for each unit. I would make that attempt, and unless ambiguity remains, would allow the correction. This differentiates this case from one where more orders are issued than units on the map...

Willie brings up a good point, but I tend to be a bit more strict - any subsequent order change (new PM) is allowed and stands, replacing the previous, but within the same PM?

At any rate, that is my opinion...

Question: should GMs use any reminder notices (those which use these) to inform players of such an ambiguity in their orders? I prefer GMs to be hands off (reminders do seem to work to keep NMRs down though).

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Re: For discussion: What happens if one unit is ordered twic

Postby VGhost » 12 Aug 2012, 21:06

I am favor of the rule as stands; two orders are ambiguous and the unit should hold.
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Re: For discussion: What happens if one unit is ordered twic

Postby Morg » 12 Aug 2012, 22:12

Looks good to me.

Orders are ambigous and replaced by hold.
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Re: For discussion: What happens if one unit is ordered twic

Postby MCP2 » 12 Aug 2012, 22:24

Making both rules invalid seems to be the most penalising outcome possible of what is an honest mistake. I would have thought the latter order should take precedence, just as it would if sent separately. But really as long as you rule on which of them to process in a consistent manner then you have a happy medium.
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Re: For discussion: What happens if one unit is ordered twic

Postby Pedros » 16 Aug 2012, 14:26

The question wasn't intended to be about what is the "proper" way of resolving it - GMs are always at liberty to vary the standard rules anyway - but what should be the default in circumstances where the GM doesn't mention it in his house rules. Majority seems clearly to favour "ambiguity - hold", so the present default stands.

But those of you playing in any of our games, please note - I favour the first order standing, Willie the last. (I'll think about changing mine to match Willie's, just to rfeduce the amount of confusion, but for the moment that's still the situation.)
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Re: For discussion: What happens if one unit is ordered twic

Postby marsman57 » 27 Aug 2012, 17:34

I'm with you Pedros on my preference, I think that the first order is the one that should stand and any subsequent orders would be discarded. This is just how I would logically do it if I were playing FTF and reading through the order list.

Considering the consensus by far is on the side of ambiguous = drop both and issue a hold, then I am okay with that.

Heck, that could give me a good new strategy if I ever play Vain Rats again! (Some powers such as Leonides only activate if the unit holds). Edit: It also helps adjudicate some VR problems where orders conflict!
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