Freedom of Speech

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Re: Freedom of Speech

Postby Strategus » 24 Dec 2020, 21:56

Interesting analogy. Warren Mitchell knew it was wrong, and was trying to belittle it. Charlie Hebdo thought they were in the right, and did nothing wrong. But anyone in their right mind could have predicted a harsh response.
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Postby Strategus » 24 Dec 2020, 22:01

My big question on racism, is what needs to be done? BLM has raised awareness, fine. But what is the solution? I find it confusing as to what is being called for. Change, but what change? There are mixed messages coming out from my perspective.
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Postby V » 24 Dec 2020, 23:10

Strategus wrote:My big question on racism, is what needs to be done? BLM has raised awareness, fine. But what is the solution? I find it confusing as to what is being called for. Change, but what change? There are mixed messages coming out from my perspective.


Here’s my two cents concerning racism. More realism has to arise that essentially racism is personal & exists on an individual basis. For many, no amount of “education” will change their beliefs, often entrenched by bad experiences over many years. That applies to everyone, not just whites, as BLM sometimes implies.
Racism is not a collective sin. It’s a personal belief.

For those individuals who for whatever reason have prejudices against others we can only have laws that prevent the worst abuses of racism, such as inequality in employment opportunity/pay etc. You’re never going to change their mind, just attempt to prevent it impacting others.
For the young & future generations we need programmes that reduce racial tension, while reinforcing the notion that fundamentally all are equal & prejudice based on race is unacceptable. This is not achieved by denigrating the past of any racial group in the attempt to solve a problem for another racial group today.

A good example of this is absurd focus on the transatlantic slave trade. The fundamental “sin” of that historical event is that the slave TRADE made unbelievable profits for the traders at the expense of the slaves. Nothing else was new.
Slavery in Africa was & still is commonplace for millennia before European nations saw the profit opportunity in that slaves were a cheap & freely available “commodity” in Africa & yet extremely valuable assets in the Americas. The fact this “commodity” were “people” was lost on the consciousness of European business people 400 years ago.
These business people were TRADERS. They would buy & sell ANYTHING. 400 years ago there was no cognisance that maybe certain items shouldn’t be traded on moral grounds.

This historical event should not have any reflection on any population group, white or black today. It’s done & thankfully at least in civilised nations consigned to history. The guilty are the uncivilised nations perpetuating slavery to this day.
For black people to condemn whites for being benefactors of an event 400 years ago is ridiculous & guaranteed to perpetuate racial divisions. For white people to belittle the seriousness of what happened 400 years ago will have the same effect.

Cromwell invaded Ireland in the 17th century. Ireland still hasn’t got over the Catholic/Protestant divide.
Lord knows the start date of equivalent problem in the Middle East between Jews & Muslims. 800+ years of division.
If we persist in treating racism as if it’s one community vs another the outcome is inevitably as bad & prolonged.
Racism is personal. It’s not about us vs them. Until that is acknowledged & communicated we already know the result.

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Re: Freedom of Speech

Postby willie23 » 27 Dec 2020, 16:02

Very good insights into racism, V. Education is important. I 100% agree with you that racism is an individual and personal problem that each of us has to deal with, along with a lot of other things that humans deal with. It’s part of our nature to be sinful.
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Postby Strategus » 27 Dec 2020, 21:23

willie23 wrote:Very good insights into racism, V. Education is important. I 100% agree with you that racism is an individual and personal problem that each of us has to deal with, along with a lot of other things that humans deal with. It’s part of our nature to be sinful.

I don't agree. I will post more soon.
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Postby Danivon » 29 Dec 2020, 15:03

There was more to the history of slavery in the Americas than the "trade" in the 1600s. And like it or not, it still has ramifications to this day.

The transatlantic trade was banned by Britain and the US by 1810. But chattel slavery remained for a generation or three beyond that. When slaves were freed, they didn't get compensated (in the British Caribbean, it was the owners who were compensation for emancipation). Former slaves and their descendents were not accorded full rights as citizens for many decades afterwards (in the US you had Jim Crow and segregation, in the British Empire it was colonial rule for another century or so).

Acknowledging history is a way to deal with it. Playing make believe that we can ignore it in order to "reduce tensions" is sheer folly. To pretend the issue of slavery is from 400 years ago when actually it is far shorter is delusional.
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Postby V » 29 Dec 2020, 15:38

Danivon wrote:There was more to the history of slavery in the Americas than the "trade" in the 1600s. And like it or not, it still has ramifications to this day.

The transatlantic trade was banned by Britain and the US by 1810. But chattel slavery remained for a generation or three beyond that. When slaves were freed, they didn't get compensated (in the British Caribbean, it was the owners who were compensation for emancipation). Former slaves and their descendents were not accorded full rights as citizens for many decades afterwards (in the US you had Jim Crow and segregation, in the British Empire it was colonial rule for another century or so).

Acknowledging history is a way to deal with it. Playing make believe that we can ignore it in order to "reduce tensions" is sheer folly. To pretend the issue of slavery is from 400 years ago when actually it is far shorter is delusional.


Fair enough, you are free to believe this view on racism if you wish. As is the bigot who denies Africans got a bad deal in history. The point is you both perpetuate the problem.
We have to break the cycle of blaming the “other” lot for what happened & using it as an excuse for what is happening now.
I cite other examples in which centuries of problems have unnecessarily persisted because people can’t get over their obsession with the “other” side, be it Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Blacks or Whites.

That’s why I describe these issues of racism as personal problems, that each individual must conquer for themselves & in doing so take a step forward. Every person that does not demonstrate racism in their life is an example for others, especially subsequent generations. People who hark back to wrongs of the past will only ever aggravate the problem into the future.

If you & others persist in treating racism as “them vs us” & after all “its all your fault” because of what your side did then & then & then, we get nowhere. History teaches us that we don’t learn from history.
Humour aside, we keep on repeating our historical errors & using history as an excuse for more.

It’s not something I’m that bothered about. I resist racism in my own life & live in a country that is thankfully pretty clear of any overt racism by any group. It’s a blessing.
My comment is more on the lines of pointing out that those that appear to be very bothered about racism (like BLM) are doing exactly the kind of activity that perpetuates racism. They’ll deny it of course, but as I said the one thing we learn from history is that we don’t learn from history.
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Postby Strategus » 29 Dec 2020, 18:57

Ok, so I have been meaning to post for a few days, and don't really have time to get all of my thoughts down, but I decided to make a start. I will expand on some of this in time, but will put down my main points, each of which could be a separate topic of debate. These are my thoughts, and should be treated as such, but I am trying to be objective in a very emotive subject. Also, this was partly in response to the concept of individual responsibility, but partly taking things a step further.

In summary, I came to the conclusion that there ate different types of racism. I believe there are three main categories, each of which can be broken down further. These are:

1. Individual
2. Institutional or systematic
3. Mob or crowd driven

If I take these one at a time, and explain what I mean by each, there may be others, so please add to them. But what should be done about each is for later.

Individual
This is the one where I believe there is most individual responsibility. It can take the form of overt discrimination or personal insult or condesention. As such, this is definitely the personal responsibility of the perpetrator. I would describe these actions as overtly racist, backed by a personally held viewpoint.

But there are other ways an individual can contribute as an individual. For example, if a person witnesses the above, and chooses to ignore it, then they are propagating the problem by giving a silent acceptance. This can be seen as a racist action (or non action in this case), and the person has individual responsibility for this, but even so, that person might not be racist themselves. Even though this person believes they are not racist, and therefore not contributing to the problem, they in fact are doing so. This is a passive form of individual racism.

Also, there are other examples. Recently the FA Chairman Greg Clarke apologised for using outdated language when referring to black footballers. He resigned as a result. He had been doing a lot of work in support of kick racism out of football. I don't think anyone actually thought he was racist, but the language he used was inflammatory, and he should have known better for a person in his position. He was definitely fully responsible for his conduct, but again, this was more of a passive racism, based on lack of education.

This latter issue, I believe, can be partially related to age. People from an earlier generation seem much more prone to be less politically correct, and to cling to outdated racial stereotypes. The glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel in this respect is the much clearer understanding that younger generations have for correct behaviour.

I will post on the other two categories later
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Postby Danivon » 30 Dec 2020, 00:49

V, you are imparting motive into my words. I was mainly giving facts to counter your points. Those facts should not be difficult to disprove if you disagree.

And maybe your lack of seeing racism directly affects your view of it.
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Postby Danivon » 30 Dec 2020, 00:51

Strategus wrote:Ok, so I have been meaning to post for a few days, and don't really have time to get all of my thoughts down, but I decided to make a start. I will expand on some of this in time, but will put down my main points, each of which could be a separate topic of debate. These are my thoughts, and should be treated as such, but I am trying to be objective in a very emotive subject. Also, this was partly in response to the concept of individual responsibility, but partly taking things a step further.

In summary, I came to the conclusion that there ate different types of racism. I believe there are three main categories, each of which can be broken down further. These are:

1. Individual
2. Institutional or systematic
3. Mob or crowd driven


Interesting. I look forward to reading the rest of this.
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