Facism and Communism

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Facism and Communism

Postby Aurelin » 26 Jul 2018, 02:37

Which one is worse? I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently. Statistically, the Communists would be worse, as Mao killed more people than Hitler and Stalin combined (Hitler: 11 million, Stalin: 20-25 million, and Mao: 45-79 million, although sources vary), AND both Stalin and Mao were Communist. But would the facists be more evil because of the way they killed their victims, and the fact it was genocide? The fact that they targeted a specific group of people, the Jews, that they hated? Even though he killed way more people, Mao killed by starvation, which is a lot less cruel than the Nazi methods. My parents are Chinese, and my dad’s grandparents were killed by the regime. They resent the fact that Hitler and Stalin are painted as so much worse, and Mao’s victims forgotten. I don’t know what to think of that. My dad also thinks that the Communists were crueler because they turned children against their parents and all that familial ripping, but I don’t buy it . . . Does that make me a spoiled American kid?
Which one do you think is worse?
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Re: Facism and Communism

Postby V » 26 Jul 2018, 03:20

Disagreeing doesn’t label you as “spoilt” by definition. I remember debating pacifism with my Father (in disagreement) for many years. In the end I agreed with his point of view, but about 20 years later!

Neither Communism or Fascism can be considered that great. Historically (maybe) Fascism has been less brutal to their own populations. The German National Socialists had an anti-Jewish vendetta leading to the Holocaust, that was a Nazi obsession, but not directly linked to the concept of Fascism & Dictatorship.

Fascism in Italy & Spain amongst others, occured during the same era with comparatively insignificant persecution of Jews.
The Nazis targeted mainly foreign individuals for persecution, Slavs & Jews in conquered territories were the majority of their murder victims. Not saying that was good, but probably preferable in the view of their own citizens.

The home population was relatively unscathed, assuming you weren’t Jewish, Disabled, Gypsy, Homosexual, Politically opposed & probably a few other categories. Therein lies the problem of course, that in any dictatorship there is no legal recourse for anyone deemed an enemy of the regime. Additionally if the ruling regime decides to wage aggressive war on the neighbours, there is little choice for the populace other than go & get killed.

Communists seem to murder vast numbers of their own populations for no obvious reason. Fascists seem to murder large numbers of foreigners for any excuse. It’s hard to say either is “better/worse”
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Re: Facism and Communism

Postby Fatmo » 26 Jul 2018, 03:42

I think it's a little too simple and easy to simply say which one is/was "worse."

There were lots of different factors that went into each of those situations.

Socially and historically, there were reasons other than pure ideology that meant that the particular totalitarian regime that emerged from each of those countries behaved in ways you could categorize as Fascist or Communist.

Fascism made more sense in Western Europe at the time as something that could reasonable take hold, even though Marxism was thought of there. Communism made more sense for the more rural and less industrialized eastern societies, especially for people in power who wanted to industrialize and change their demographics quickly.

I think some people get too caught up in the labels, when really these were all simply cases where certain people were able to take complete totalitarian control of their countries and went to extreme measures to either hold onto their power, modernize industrially, or try to create some Utopian fantasy world freed of the people who just wouldn't fit in. In trying to create their perfect world and/or maintain power, they killed lots of people. Some on purpose, some as collateral damage. Whether they were technically Communist or Fascist doesn't really seem particularly important.

As far as tallying up totals of people killed, that can also be a tricky way of trying to rank which one was worse. There were so many different factors involved with all of them. Mao was in power the longest, and also ruled over more of a population than anyone else at the time. He was also arguably the most idealistic (in the romantic traditional sense) in his intentions of the three. He also attempted the most radical changes, and did so several times. There was the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution (that is what your parents were talking about, with families turning against each other). There were probably other attempts at radical change as well that don't have catchy names.

Stalin also tried to reorganize society a few times. One of the themes of these particular Communist governments was to have sort of a constant revolution. Not necessarily a political revolution as much as cultural. Trying to change/progress society in a way that was faster than a more organic evolution. For Russia and China, the goal was to modernize and be able to be more self-sufficient and industrial. Interestingly, one could argue that, as bad as Stalin was, if he had not been such a hard-ass and modernized industry quickly in the late 20s and 30s, they would not have been able to resist Germany during World War 2. Germany could easily have been able to win the war if they could have overwhelmed Russia quickly, and they almost did.

Germany didn't really have to do that in the same way, nor did they have time. Even though they were supposed to have disarmed and all after World War 1, they still had an amazing industrial infrastructure lying dormant. They were already one of the most modernized industrial countries in the world. That's why Fascism made more sense for them to take and hold onto power. Even though the raw number of people killed by Germany was lower than the other two, they did so in much less time, and really for no reason other than following through on their rhetoric of targeting scapegoats. They had their people convinced that they could create their Utopia by killing the subhumans or competitor races to their Aryan race, clearing the way for their race to prosper.

But yea, I wouldn't say one is necessarily worse than the other. Many Communist governments are very different from one another anyway. Just as Germany and Italy were different. Just as most capitalist or democratic or parliamentary governments are different from one another. Some in all categories will be bad actors at one time or another.
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Re: Facism and Communism

Postby LordJezza » 26 Jul 2018, 05:49

Aurelia1 wrote:Which one is worse? I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently. Statistically, the Communists would be worse, as Mao killed more people than Hitler and Stalin combined (Hitler: 11 million, Stalin: 20-25 million, and Mao: 45-79 million, although sources vary), AND both Stalin and Mao were Communist. But would the facists be more evil because of the way they killed their victims, and the fact it was genocide? The fact that they targeted a specific group of people, the Jews, that they hated? Even though he killed way more people, Mao killed by starvation, which is a lot less cruel than the Nazi methods. My parents are Chinese, and my dad’s grandparents were killed by the regime. They resent the fact that Hitler and Stalin are painted as so much worse, and Mao’s victims forgotten. I don’t know what to think of that. My dad also thinks that the Communists were crueler because they turned children against their parents and all that familial ripping, but I don’t buy it . . . Does that make me a spoiled American kid?
Which one do you think is worse?


So many bad assumptions in the question I think. Firstly I wonder what the per capita death count was, as Mao and Stalin ruled over far larger populations than Hitler. Secondly, Hitler ordered millions of men to their death, beyond those he killed in concentration camps, whether they were Jews, the disabled, political opponents or gypsies. The wars he started cost the lives of millions of German soldiers, some in brutal conditions on the eastern front.

What makes starvation less cruel than either shooting or gassing someone btw? I can’t imagine it is a comfortable way to die, slowly wasting away.

Surely the lessen is that totalitarian governments abuse their power mercilessly and that democracies with checks and balances help to curb that abuse of power?
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Re: Facism and Communism

Postby condude1 » 26 Jul 2018, 07:51

LordJezza wrote:What makes starvation less cruel than either shooting or gassing someone btw? I can’t imagine it is a comfortable way to die, slowly wasting away.


It's the intent that matters here. IF someone falls off a cliff because you bump them, it's a lot less abhorrent than pushing them off the cliff.

As for the OP, I'd like to note that the question actually being asked is "Under which system has more wrong been done?" It's a relevant distinction because it's unfair to hold a system accountable for a lunatic. Mao, Hitler, and Stalin were terrible people, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the political system they came to power in.

The answer is probably fascism. Communism starved a bunch of people when deployed poorly, but Fascism is a breeding ground for power-hungry maniacs. Many of the same points against commuinsm all hold against capitalism (some moreso), meaning that rampant starvation has something to do with that weird thing called corruption. Murder (like in the case of Hitler) has more to do with being a nut-job.
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Re: Facism and Communism

Postby varkenskop » 26 Jul 2018, 08:43

In theory facism is defintely worse. I don’t think people like Stalin, Mao and Saloth Sar actually were communists. They used communism as an exuse for a dictatorship. If Marx was still alive he would say there never was communism and there was fake communism. Communism is in maybe even not bad, I agree on the entire and think the dictatorship Marx was talking about was maybe symbolic and certainly not so long as countries are communist. Communism was not there and is definitely better and maybe good. Facism is bad, but I think you mean Nazism in your question (facism includes groups like the KKK and you don’t want to discuss them I think.
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Re: Facism and Communism

Postby Strategus » 26 Jul 2018, 09:38

Aren't you confusing the political ideologies with historic characters? Typically, the people bastardised the ideologies to suit their own agenda.
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Re: Facism and Communism

Postby Don Juan of Austria » 26 Jul 2018, 11:14

What makes starvation less cruel than either shooting or gassing someone btw? I can’t imagine it is a comfortable way to die, slowly wasting away.


Starvation, in my opinion, is far worse than most deaths. Often times driving people crazy, or to cannibalism...sometimes even of family members. It takes a painful amount of time too, which most other tortures wouldn't last.
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Re: Facism and Communism

Postby Strategus » 26 Jul 2018, 11:40

As far as I am aware, neither ideology promotes killing anyone. By any means. If either ideology is applied correctly and responsibly, they work. The problem historically was that they were corrupted rather badly, by the well known protagonists. E.g. Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, etc.
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Re: Facism and Communism

Postby joe92 » 26 Jul 2018, 12:42

Fascism as an ideology includes forceable suppression of opposition and for the state to be led a dictator and martial government. Fascism rejects the notion that violence is unnecessary or negative. Fascism believes that war and imperialism are positive means to bring about national rejuvenation and progress. As an ideology Fascism does seek to kill.

As such I would say that Fascism is worse on an ideological level.
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