Objective vs subjective reality

A forum to seperate the more serious discussions from the lighter topics in Off-topic.

Objective vs subjective reality

Postby Aurelin » 25 Jul 2018, 18:53

I’m a philosophy nerd, and after doing a science project that involved the Bohr-Einstein debate I become obsessed with this. This link explains it a little: https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi2627.htm
Basically, do you think everything exists whether or not someone is looking, or is everything only happening in our heads? I’m on Bohr’s side, I believe in a subjective reality where things exist only because of our minds.
A lot of people think I’m crazy, and Einstein does seem right at first glance. :D But think of the placebo effect. If our minds can affect the matter in our own body, what’s to say it doesn’t affect other things? Also, this PBS video talks about entangled particles and how they are affected by being observed: https://youtu.be/tafGL02EUOA
But I love these discussions, so what do you think?
Last edited by Aurelin on 25 Jul 2018, 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
Silver Classicist
User avatar
Aurelin
Premium Member
 
Posts: 127
Joined: 14 Jul 2018, 02:01
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1016
All-game rating: 985
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Objective vs subjective reality

Postby varkenskop » 25 Jul 2018, 19:18

I’m on Einsteins side. If Bohr is right everything and everyone is an illusion, but are minds are real, so the theory your brain is the only thing brings lots of questions. Also the fact that you send this message is weird, if you are on Bohr’s side, you know the answers will also be lies. Also the fact that you sometimes see something which isn’t actually there and you realize that supports Einstein theory; yes we see something what isn’t and we expect, but we correct with the truth.
varkenskop
 
Posts: 25
Joined: 08 May 2018, 11:56
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: 954
All-game rating: 935
Timezone: GMT+1

Re: Objective vs subjective reality

Postby willie23 » 25 Jul 2018, 19:33

Yeah, to be honest the whole debate seems very silly in my opinion. Something exists before it is discovered, whether that be an elephant or an electron or particle wave length. Just because it is unknown to us humans or our brains doesn't mean it does not exist.


Varkenskop made some really excellent points that I agree with. Does Bohr think that something can be happening in my mind but not in yours? If so, how does that work?? Are there alternate levels of reality that are not actually real at all??? And how then can Bohr prove that his own brain isn't an illusion? That's like saying "there is no truth." Then is the before statement truth? It defeats its own self.
“Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible;”— General T. J. Jackson

Bronze Member of the Classicists
Member of the Whippersnappers.
United Republic of New Texas In CYOC
Check out the PlayDip Historical Society!
User avatar
willie23
 
Posts: 288
Joined: 11 Jan 2018, 20:20
Location: Lordsburg, New Mexico, USA (Right on Interstate-10)
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: 1002
All-game rating: 999
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Objective vs subjective reality

Postby Strategus » 25 Jul 2018, 19:39

willie23 wrote:Yeah, to be honest the whole debate seems very silly in my opinion. Something exists before it is discovered, whether that be an elephant or an electron or particle wave length. Just because it is unknown to us humans or our brains doesn't mean it does not exist.


Varkenskop made some really excellent points that I agree with. Does Bohr think that something can be happening in my mind but not in yours? If so, how does that work?? Are there alternate levels of reality that are not actually real at all??? And how then can Bohr prove that his own brain isn't an illusion? That's like saying "there is no truth." Then is the before statement truth? It defeats its own self.

Exactly. A guaranteed way to win Diplomacy already exists. I just haven't discovered it yet.
The Devil makes work for idle forces

Better to have fought and lost, than never to have fought at all
Actual Platinum Classicist
I did WDC 2017

Just say "NO!" To carebears and kittens
User avatar
Strategus
 
Posts: 1764
Joined: 30 May 2015, 14:30
Location: England
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1598
All-game rating: 1745
Timezone: GMT

Re: Objective vs subjective reality

Postby condude1 » 25 Jul 2018, 20:19

This is one case where we can point as Sagan's "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Coming up with a narrative that is internally consistent doesn't magically imbue that narrative with any validity. Especially in the case of claims that make little sense, you need (lots of) external evidence to defend it. The placebo effect doesn't supprot your cause because we KNOW our minds affect our bodies. The hypothalamus and pituitary release hormones that cause huge changes to our bodies. There's no evidence to suggest that they have any more power than that, and considering that telekinesis is an extraordinary claim, you need more than a coherent narrative to make it remotely convincing.

No one knows what the heck's happening at a quantum level. Observation affects particles, but that doesn't mean that OUR observation has to. If we left a machine running without anyone near it, it would still affect the particle.
Telleo wrote:I don't think I've ever met someone who more perfectly embodied Chaotic Neutral than Condude1.


Moderator of the Mafia Subforums!

Silver member of The Classicists!
User avatar
condude1
 
Posts: 6982
Joined: 06 Feb 2013, 03:41
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1368)
All-game rating: (1307)
Timezone: GMT-8

Re: Objective vs subjective reality

Postby varkenskop » 25 Jul 2018, 21:04

Other interesthing questions are:
1 if Bohr is truth are there other things then your mind
2 AI can use neural systems and evolves, just like darwins theory and humans evolve. They behave like they have an actual brain, but can not think themselves. If we are an advanced form of AI which is possible, could we be smarter than the ones who created us (which may or may not be AI). And if that is thrue can we speak of AI evolving to better AI like darwins theory and could we be the first AI waves who knows they are in an evolving system.
varkenskop
 
Posts: 25
Joined: 08 May 2018, 11:56
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: 954
All-game rating: 935
Timezone: GMT+1

Re: Objective vs subjective reality

Postby mhsmith0 » 25 Jul 2018, 21:40

obligatory

Image

:P
Proud holder of the Superior Tophat of Solving, an item entrusted with the forum's most prominent smartass
User avatar
mhsmith0
Premium Member
 
Posts: 3578
Joined: 11 Dec 2015, 06:55
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1269)
All-game rating: (1439)
Timezone: GMT-7

Re: Objective vs subjective reality

Postby Don Juan of Austria » 25 Jul 2018, 22:25

But I love these discussions, so what do you think?


I want to know what Myer-Briggs type you are.... ;)
"In everything, moderation". ~Aristotle
A proud member of the Whippersnappers,
Bronze Classicists,
Lancer in the PBF cavalry.

Ireland in Heptarchy 16!
Don Juan of Toledo in Diplomacy for Dukes and Popes!
User avatar
Don Juan of Austria
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: 19 Feb 2014, 11:50
Location: South Africa, though given to travel
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1047
All-game rating: 1160
Timezone: GMT+2

Re: Objective vs subjective reality

Postby Aurelin » 26 Jul 2018, 01:22

Don Juan of Austria wrote:
But I love these discussions, so what do you think?


I want to know what Myer-Briggs type you are.... ;)

I got ENFP once and ENTJ once. Why?
Silver Classicist
User avatar
Aurelin
Premium Member
 
Posts: 127
Joined: 14 Jul 2018, 02:01
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1016
All-game rating: 985
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Objective vs subjective reality

Postby DavidMaletsky » 26 Jul 2018, 04:36

Presuppose that the mind creates reality. There was a time when my mind didn’t exist. Therefore, nothing existed. How did my mind spring into existence in the absence of existence?

Furthermore, we have the technology for indirect observation today. We can record on a non sentient machine the stable existence of, say, a tree, even when no one is present to observe said tree.
DavidMaletsky
 
Posts: 23
Joined: 11 Jun 2018, 19:05


Return to Debates

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests