History and Slavery

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Re: History and Slavery

Postby mhsmith0 » 28 Feb 2018, 18:52

willie23 wrote:...a crazed civil rights movement and other absurd organizations.

:shock:

btw for the curious...
http://www.history.com/news/how-the-u-s ... -monuments

Essentially those statues, for the most part, were built explicitly with the purpose of reinforcing segregation and black oppression; that's why they were mainly built as part of Jim Crow and as part of the backlash to civil rights. So the question is whether the historical value of said statues is greater or lesser than the cost of allowing them to continue to exist in a glorified/prominent context when the reason for their being (most of the statues anyway) is to glorify the shameful and evil. My position is probably obvious from this commentary but obviously people have differing opinions...

PS possibly the correct answer is to do something similar to what budapest did, see
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/17/wha ... zi-soviet/
and https://christinebednarz.wordpress.com/ ... atue-park/
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Re: History and Slavery

Postby willie23 » 28 Feb 2018, 19:01

Sorry about all my misspellings...
“Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible;”— General T. J. Jackson

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Re: History and Slavery

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 28 Feb 2018, 19:12

Imagine your great, great, great, great grandson/daughter walking through, say, Alabama. What will he see? A statue of Lee, the horrible slave owner, or a statue that gives insight into past times? It is rash and insensible to tear down statues today because of a crazed civil rights movement and other absurd organizations

You're really undermining your cause here when you refer to "good slave owners" or "a crazed civil rights movement." If you had to walk past a statue of a man that fought to keep your great grandparents and people that looked like you enslaved, you'd want to tear it down too.

Beyond that...if black people especially but non-whites in general didn't have to fight and scrape and claw for every ounce of respect they've ever received in this country, then there wouldn't be a "crazed civil rights movement." There'd just be people saying "hey, this isn't really fair," and whomever is in power saying "yeah, you know what, you're right, this isn't fair!" But that's not the history of this country...the history of this country is that black people have had to fight tooth and nail to be treated like human beings, and that change hasn't come until there's no option but for change to come or the country to fracture. This was true in the civil war, this was true in the 30s and 40s, it was true in the civil rights movements of the 50s and 60s, and it remains true to this day. So yeah, in that context, I'd want to tear down a statue that represented not just a man who fought to keep slavery around, but the fact that a man who fought to keep slavery around is venerated in the south in part as a direct slap to the face of black people.


Personally, I don't care about the statues. But I completely understand why people do, and it's because of what they represent.
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Re: History and Slavery

Postby willie23 » 28 Feb 2018, 20:36

“...the history of this country is that black people have had to fight tooth and nail to be treated like human beings, and that change hasn't come until there's no option but for change to come or the country to fracture. This was true in the civil war, this was true in the 30s and 40s, it was true in the civil rights movements of the 50s and 60s, and it remains true to this day...” -nanooktheeskimo

Yes, you are right, when the slave trade began in the 1600s to the 1800s Africans in Africa sold their brethren to the white man, who then sold them elsewhere, such as in America. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, during the time of the Jim Crow laws, African Americans were greatly discriminated, and yes, they fought hard for their own rights as a man equal to all other men. I cannot stress enough how much I respect Dr. King Jr., and the civil rights movement of his time.

Today, though, things are different. For example, there is a new civil rights movement: Black Lives Matter. Well, let me put it as simple as I can. A civil rights movement for African Americans is not at all necessary in today’s day and age. Any self-respecting person knows that Blacks are equal to whites, and all that. The only reason there is any anger at the blacks is because, quite simply, they are becoming a nucance to Society. Always rioting and destroying their own cities, etc. We have already cleared all that up, they are equal now(they always have Been, just not treated that way). Half the time, they shoot their own movement in the foot. Remember how Dr. King Jr. Was all about peaceful protest? You know what I think? Blue lives matter too! ALL LIVES MATTER! And I would know too, as my father is a federal agent!
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Re: History and Slavery

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 28 Feb 2018, 20:58

Today, though, things are different. For example, there is a new civil rights movement: Black Lives Matter. Well, let me put it as simple as I can. A civil rights movement for African Americans is not at all necessary in today’s day and age. Any self-respecting person knows that Blacks are equal to whites, and all that. The only reason there is any anger at the blacks is because, quite simply, they are becoming a nucance to Society. Always rioting and destroying their own cities, etc. We have already cleared all that up, they are equal now(they always have Been, just not treated that way). Half the time, they shoot their own movement in the foot. Remember how Dr. King Jr. Was all about peaceful protest? You know what I think? Blue lives matter too! ALL LIVES MATTER! And I would know too, as my father is a federal agent!

I was hoping this wouldn't be where we ended up, but it seems that your true color's are starting to show through now. It is absolutely not true that there's no racism and thus no need for civil rights movements in today's day and age. It would be great if that were true, but it just isn't. There are Americans openly identifying as nazis. Our president ran on a platform partially built on racism. Even your very post evinces a form of racism, in the framing of black people as "them," and blaming "them" for "their" issues. Hell, you just called black people a nuisance to society! What do you think people in the 60s said to justify their racism? Cause I can promise you that it quite often sounded very similar to what you're saying here (identifying the "good blacks," pointing to black on black violence as evidence they're a drag in society, calling them a nuisance to the greater society).

Black lives matter is necessary because right now, black lives aren't weighted equal to other lives. They aren't saying black lives matter more--they're saying they matter equally, but aren't being treated as such.

And don't do the "but they're violent!" Bullshit. No they aren't. Some isolated people have committed acts of violence in their name, which is a far cry from them condoning or committing acts of violence themselves. That's like blaming the Beatles for Manson because they made Helter Skelter. Pay attention to what the group says, not what people say about the group.
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Re: History and Slavery

Postby willie23 » 28 Feb 2018, 21:16

Yes, sir, you are correct. Certain individuals put out a bad name for the whole group. And I don’t mean to come accross as racist. I respect African Americans and everything they contribute to our Society. One of my greatest personal hero’s is Dr. Ben Carson. I also greatly admire Dr King Jr. But the only reason that people still don’t think of African Americans as equal is because they won’t let us... they continue to remind us about their hard times. We all get it now- we’re sorry. Now move on. That’s all I’m saying.
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Re: History and Slavery

Postby Fatmo » 28 Feb 2018, 21:35

Oy
You don't know what I'm thinking...because I don't know what I'm doing.

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Re: History and Slavery

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 28 Feb 2018, 21:52

willie23 wrote:Yes, sir, you are correct. Certain individuals put out a bad name for the whole group. And I don’t mean to come accross as racist. I respect African Americans and everything they contribute to our Society. One of my greatest personal hero’s is Dr. Ben Carson. I also greatly admire Dr King Jr. But the only reason that people still don’t think of African Americans as equal is because they won’t let us... they continue to remind us about their hard times. We all get it now- we’re sorry. Now move on. That’s all I’m saying.

You're not "coming across as racist" so much as you're sharing opinions that evince racidm. And no, respecting some black people doesn't mean you can't be racist. That's not how racism works.

White people dont treat black people as equal because they've never been forced to, not in this country.

If your ancestors and people who looked like you had been enslaved and oppressed for centuries, a couple decades of it being not as bad as it used to be (but still not on equal footing) wouldn't be enough to appease you either.

And note that you're still referring to it as a "them" problem. Where there's separation, there isn't equality.
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Re: History and Slavery

Postby WHSeward » 28 Feb 2018, 21:55

OK, I think this thread has run its (predictable) course. Locking.

Advertising is a violation of site rules so sections of these posts are being edited.

Willie asked that one last word be added to this thread:
Willie23 wrote:I would like to apologize to everyone, especially the people I offended. Please disregard any advertisement.

Also, I stand by my beliefs. I do believe in equality for all people.

Again, my sincerest apologizes.

Willie.
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