Hillary or Bernie?

A forum to seperate the more serious discussions from the lighter topics in Off-topic.

Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby TreciKorpus BiH » 20 Feb 2016, 21:47

Diplomat 1966 wrote:I'm supporting Bernie!


As I said before that I'm not democratic but Bernie seems like one of the better canidates.
If anyone is looking for a game with 24/24/24 orders or longer and is ranked, please PM me to join.
Previously known as BROCKENBROUGH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STqIRY7nHes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW2JdBb3sJM
User avatar
TreciKorpus BiH
 
Posts: 195
Joined: 21 Oct 2015, 14:39
Location: A winter hell
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (961)
All-game rating: (970)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby GregorV » 20 Feb 2016, 21:52

BROCKENBROUGH wrote:
GregorV wrote:
BROCKENBROUGH wrote:I beg to differ


As an objective matter, Hillary has more experience in foreign policy, politics, compromising, and more. Bernie has lived his life off of the public's bill, in a local sense. He has introduced 5235 bills into the House or Senate. 233 passed both chambers. This is not indicative of an ability to compromise or work together. Since 2007, he's only sponsored 22 bills that passed both chambers.


I don't think that america is ready for a woman president yet, and I'm not in favor of democrats.


The topic is to directly compare Hillary and Bernie. Saying that you don't want a woman in the presidency...doesn't go very far towards convincing anyone else that a woman shouldn't be President.

Of course, I'm not voting Democrat at any point. But I do think that Hillary has more going for her than Bernie.
I got left with nothin' but a Penny, so I had to do it the Hardaway.

What is Mafia? It is a never ending time sink where seemingly trivial inconsequential passing comments are often portrayed as cast iron proof of guilt. Run away backs rather whilst you still can. For me, there is no hope.
User avatar
GregorV
Premium Member
 
Posts: 2442
Joined: 02 Jun 2015, 17:12
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: 1065
All-game rating: 1054
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby TreciKorpus BiH » 20 Feb 2016, 21:54

Yeah it kind of looks like. I still got 6 years before I get to vote.
If anyone is looking for a game with 24/24/24 orders or longer and is ranked, please PM me to join.
Previously known as BROCKENBROUGH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STqIRY7nHes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW2JdBb3sJM
User avatar
TreciKorpus BiH
 
Posts: 195
Joined: 21 Oct 2015, 14:39
Location: A winter hell
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (961)
All-game rating: (970)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby I Love Italy » 20 Feb 2016, 21:59

GoRunGetToTheChopper wrote:Hillary is a corrupt liar.

Bernie is a radical moron who doesnt understand how the economy works.

Id probably prefer Bernie, because since hes such a radical liberal he wont be able to get anything done. If Hillary wins, she will continue the damage Obama already caused.


Yet how much of that damage was simply caused by gridlock in Congress?

True, not everything Obama has done has been a success, but some of it has been. And with the current situation in congress, I find that close to a miracle.

Plus, the country was in a very bad way when he started, economically. You could argue all day about how much Obama had to do with the recovery that's occurred, but you can't ignore that problem was fixed. He could've easily worsened the Recession, to the point where it would still be in full swing, but he didn't.

So, I don't think you can call his presidency a failure. Was it one of the best ever? No. Was it one of the worst ever? No. Just a solid, middle of the road eight years.
I have special eyes.
User avatar
I Love Italy
 
Posts: 2357
Joined: 31 Jul 2013, 23:08
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1041)
All-game rating: (1059)
Timezone: GMT-8

Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby TreciKorpus BiH » 20 Feb 2016, 22:00

I Love Italy wrote:
GoRunGetToTheChopper wrote:Hillary is a corrupt liar.

Bernie is a radical moron who doesnt understand how the economy works.

Id probably prefer Bernie, because since hes such a radical liberal he wont be able to get anything done. If Hillary wins, she will continue the damage Obama already caused.


Yet how much of that damage was simply caused by gridlock in Congress?

True, not everything Obama has done has been a success, but some of it has been. And with the current situation in congress, I find that close to a miracle.

Plus, the country was in a very bad way when he started, economically. You could argue all day about how much Obama had to do with the recovery that's occurred, but you can't ignore that problem was fixed. He could've easily worsened the Recession, to the point where it would still be in full swing, but he didn't.

So, I don't think you can call his presidency a failure. Was it one of the best ever? No. Was it one of the worst ever? No. Just a solid, middle of the road eight years.


That is true I guess.
If anyone is looking for a game with 24/24/24 orders or longer and is ranked, please PM me to join.
Previously known as BROCKENBROUGH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STqIRY7nHes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW2JdBb3sJM
User avatar
TreciKorpus BiH
 
Posts: 195
Joined: 21 Oct 2015, 14:39
Location: A winter hell
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (961)
All-game rating: (970)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby Malevolence » 20 Feb 2016, 22:01

Coming purely from the Republican side (and noting that may mean I vote democrat depending on who wins the nomination for my party), there are a few things to consider.

Both Trump and Sanders are applying the same political technique to rally support. Both locate a severe problem with society, identify an 'other' (external threats China Mexico Muslims for Trump, financial institutions for Sanders) and claim that marginalizing this 'other' with radical policies will resolve all the nations ills and return it to past greatness (social equality for Sanders of say, the 50s,60s,70s and US global hegemony for Trump). For this reason I would argue both are dangerous, in that they actively deny the validity of alternative points of view.

In the same vein, I would compare Clinton to Cruz. Both have shown that they are by far the best at playing the political game in either of their parties. They are both supremely Machiavellian and change policy and tack depending on popular support, utility, etc [Cruz for example, never supported 'a wall' until it became popular with Trump, but he likely doesn't care at all, it's just useful, meanwhile Clinton describes Libya as "a great success" (I wish that wasn't a direct quote)]. This is an acceptable double edged sword. It does mean they will constantly seek more power, which is risky given how defective Congress has been recently, providing popular support for a more powerful executive branch. That being said, it also means a more intelligent, national interest based Foreign Policy, and fewer Putin/Xi antics in regional hot spots-not due to hawkish policy, but intelligent communication and understanding of others' interests and our own.

I don't 'like' either Cruz or Clinton, but I think they would both be Machiavellian, effective Presidents.


Personally, I'm more of a Rubio/Bush fan, although I think Kasich by far has the best policy for addressing the Heroin crisis, and I hope that regardless of who is elected, he is appointed to head up resolving that issue.
Creator of 1939, Superpowers, Future of the World, Fate of the World, Fantasy CYOC, Outbreak, History of the World, Italian Renaissance Diplomacy, 21st Century Diplomacy, Inheritors
User avatar
Malevolence
 
Posts: 7585
Joined: 20 May 2011, 22:01
Location: Washington, DC
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1049)
All-game rating: (1031)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby TreciKorpus BiH » 20 Feb 2016, 22:03

All I can say is "What have we gotten ourselves into?"
If anyone is looking for a game with 24/24/24 orders or longer and is ranked, please PM me to join.
Previously known as BROCKENBROUGH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STqIRY7nHes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW2JdBb3sJM
User avatar
TreciKorpus BiH
 
Posts: 195
Joined: 21 Oct 2015, 14:39
Location: A winter hell
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (961)
All-game rating: (970)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby GregorV » 20 Feb 2016, 22:13

I Love Italy wrote:
GoRunGetToTheChopper wrote:Hillary is a corrupt liar.

Bernie is a radical moron who doesnt understand how the economy works.

Id probably prefer Bernie, because since hes such a radical liberal he wont be able to get anything done. If Hillary wins, she will continue the damage Obama already caused.


Yet how much of that damage was simply caused by gridlock in Congress?

True, not everything Obama has done has been a success, but some of it has been. And with the current situation in congress, I find that close to a miracle.

Plus, the country was in a very bad way when he started, economically. You could argue all day about how much Obama had to do with the recovery that's occurred, but you can't ignore that problem was fixed. He could've easily worsened the Recession, to the point where it would still be in full swing, but he didn't.

So, I don't think you can call his presidency a failure. Was it one of the best ever? No. Was it one of the worst ever? No. Just a solid, middle of the road eight years.


While gridlock isn't a bad thing (I'm always terrified by unconstrained leadership), Obama didn't completely ruin the country.

People who think he was a top 5 or so pres are simply wrong, though.
I got left with nothin' but a Penny, so I had to do it the Hardaway.

What is Mafia? It is a never ending time sink where seemingly trivial inconsequential passing comments are often portrayed as cast iron proof of guilt. Run away backs rather whilst you still can. For me, there is no hope.
User avatar
GregorV
Premium Member
 
Posts: 2442
Joined: 02 Jun 2015, 17:12
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: 1065
All-game rating: 1054
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby I Love Italy » 20 Feb 2016, 22:20

As for my thoughts on Hilary or Bernie:

Hilary is part of the political machine. Things won't change under her presidency. Sure, we might get a bill or two here or there that push things one way or the other, but she's not going to have a Hundred Days, or anything remotely close to it. So, I don't support her. But, I believe that no change is better than negative change, so if it comes to her against, say, Trump in the general, I'm voting Hilary.

Bernie: I really support many of the ideas he wishes to implement in America. Just look at Scandinavia to see how measured Socialism can really strengthen a country. However, I have no illusions about whether or not he'd be able to get Congress to pass these policies. This, coupled with the supposition I have that he would veto a large majority of bills sent through a Republican congress, means that unless the Democrats can win a large majority (large enough to offset the members of their party that aren't far left enough to agree with Bernie's ideas), or Republicans can win at least a two-thirds majority in both houses (I don't see too many, if any, Republicans straying far enough from the party to align with Bernie), very little is going to happen. So, in the same boat as Hilary.

To sum up, there are three options for president (as of now):

Hilary: a longtime member of the political elite, who is aligned with the party that I see myself as more of a part of

Bernie: A radical idealist whose views I support

The Republican Candidate: Likely Trump or Cruz, neither of whom I would go anywhere near supporting, and who has a good chance of passing a fair amount of legislation, due to party power in Congress

So, given this choice, I'm not particularly happy with any of the options. But, I'd have to go with Bernie. If I had the choice by very little being done by someone that I marginally support (Hilary) or someone I fully support (Bernie) I choose the latter. And, given the choice between little done by someone whose ideas I support, and a lot done by someone I could hardly disagree with more, I choose the former.

So, in answer to the question of Hilary or Bernie: I say Bernie.
I have special eyes.
User avatar
I Love Italy
 
Posts: 2357
Joined: 31 Jul 2013, 23:08
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1041)
All-game rating: (1059)
Timezone: GMT-8

Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby I Love Italy » 20 Feb 2016, 22:22

GregorV wrote:
I Love Italy wrote:
GoRunGetToTheChopper wrote:Hillary is a corrupt liar.

Bernie is a radical moron who doesnt understand how the economy works.

Id probably prefer Bernie, because since hes such a radical liberal he wont be able to get anything done. If Hillary wins, she will continue the damage Obama already caused.


Yet how much of that damage was simply caused by gridlock in Congress?

True, not everything Obama has done has been a success, but some of it has been. And with the current situation in congress, I find that close to a miracle.

Plus, the country was in a very bad way when he started, economically. You could argue all day about how much Obama had to do with the recovery that's occurred, but you can't ignore that problem was fixed. He could've easily worsened the Recession, to the point where it would still be in full swing, but he didn't.

So, I don't think you can call his presidency a failure. Was it one of the best ever? No. Was it one of the worst ever? No. Just a solid, middle of the road eight years.


While gridlock isn't a bad thing (I'm always terrified by unconstrained leadership), Obama didn't completely ruin the country.

People who think he was a top 5 or so pres are simply wrong, though.



I totally agree with you. He's, in my opinion, nowhere near the top 5.

I also agree about the positive benefits of gridlock. It's why we have three branches of government after all. Checks and balances need to be in place.

I'm more saying that for people who say President Obama didn't do enough in office that he was faced with such extreme gridlock, drawn so clearly along party lines, for so much of his time in office, that it's a miracle anything of consequence with his seal of approval was passed.
I have special eyes.
User avatar
I Love Italy
 
Posts: 2357
Joined: 31 Jul 2013, 23:08
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1041)
All-game rating: (1059)
Timezone: GMT-8

PreviousNext

Return to Debates

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests