Hillary or Bernie?

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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby condude1 » 20 Feb 2016, 21:09

joe92 wrote:
OldBaldGuy wrote:"Cruz? He's the worst of them all. "Only if you believe the Constitution of the US is not the blueprint for the greatest country in the history of the world. The United States has defeated Nazism and Communism, bringing freedom to millions.


He doesn't believe in the constitution himself. He wants to put the word of God, a fictional being, above all else. That goes against the constitution. He has stated time after time that gays and atheists should not be respected (I think he even went so far as to say they have no place in the US but I have no source for that) and opposes every bill put forwards on equality. He opposes abortion and loves buttered cows. But worst of all, he opposes Net Neutrality (fun fact, his donors include Comcast). He is completely and utterly wrong in his views on Net Neutrality. It is a bipartisan issue is without a doubt one of the most important issues of today.

I agree with you here. I'd take Trump (shudder) over Cruz. Cruz's platform is so far to the religious right that I worry for what would happen to America should he get into power. Trump is just a jerk and a moron.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby GregorV » 20 Feb 2016, 21:11

condude1 wrote:
GregorV wrote:
condude1 wrote:
So your complaints with Sanders are that a) he's charismatic and tapping into a legitimate source of frustration with the American public, and b) that the system's so broken that someone who's campaigning on trying to fix it won't get anywhere. Isn't that all the MORE reason to vote Sanders?

Anyways, I'm Canadian, but still paying attention to the primaries. Sanders' views align with mine in almost every case, and he seems 100% sincere in campaigning for them. That itself would be enough to win my vote.

The kneejerk "SOCIALIST!!!" response that people give in reaction to Sanders is little more than decades of conditioning (since the start of the Cold War, anything that resembles communism in any way has been attacked viciously). Fiscally, how much worse can it be than America's... $17 trillion of debt? Neither traditional Republicans nor traditional Democrats fixed that, so why not think outside the box a bit?


My complaint about Bernie is that it would require the Senate to flip, the House to hold, and him to win the primary and general elections in order to get his proposals introduced to Congressional floor. It's not an all or nothing thing. If he can't get everything he wants passed, I don't see a reason he can't fall back on slightly less progressive policies.

Explain this. Isn't a broad part of Bernie's appeal that he hasn't gone back on what he's said, and is a generally trustworthy guy, in that he'll do what he says? You can't have it both ways.
condude1 wrote:These things seem unlikely based on voter demographics so far, which have shown that Bernie is attracting the interest of the populace which votes the least (college students). In opposition to that, Hillary is getting votes from the people who turn out the most (seniors/middle aged). Another major problem with Bernie's campaign is the massive lack of political support. Here's the thing, college students traditionally vote the least. In the recent primaries, they've turned out in much greater numbers supporting him. I actually am worried that if Clinton wins the nomination, Trump's sway among younger voters, and his version of the populist movement, will sway a lot of people his way. In Trump v. Sanders, however, I think Sanders would be able to hold his own, and probably beat Trump on his home turf: the people who want change.
Exactly my point. College students are great to get a campaign started, but will not vote in the general. They're like the booster rockets on the Apollo misisons: They'll get you going, but you've got to have a better engine to get to the moon.

I pray that Trump does not win. Trump v. Sanders is my nightmare matchup. Just gotta get the Repubs to consolidate on somebody, and Trump goes down.
condude1 wrote:
Just because Ron Paul did well in Iowa back a few years ago, doesn't mean I ever thought he had a chance at winning the general. We see this every year. To get my vote, Bernie would have to actually demonstrate how his yet-to-be-defined policies would help America, one of the most diverse countries that accepts over a million immigrants a year. Pointing to homogeneous, monocultural countries such as Sweden and Denmark don't do it for me.I'm kind of confused as to what you want here. You're saying that because America is more diverse than Sweden and Denmark, and accepts X number of immigrants, somehow Sanders' platform is weaker? You're going to have to explain this one to me.
Don't put words into my mouth.
I'm saying that a number of Sanders' policies work well in a small, homogeneous country whose electorate generally votes for the same principles each cycle. They simply don't work in a country which has greater concerns than deciding which freshly-arrived refugees they need to kick out for capital crimes this week.
condude1 wrote:
Furthermore: A lot of people like to point to the debt calculation as a damning bit of evidence that America's leadership is terrible. (18 trillion, by the way). Does it really need fixing? Is it even a problem?

Government spending has remained relatively constant as a % of the American economy since 1985. Our economy has never been larger, and debt has risen correspondingly. Besides, what would reducing the debt mean? If we reduce the debt from 18 trillion down to, say, 3 trillion (a massive change), then all we've really done is cut government spending from 22.5% of the economy to 19% of the economy. So what's the problem with running a deficit? I don't see how you can simultaneously hold this view, and the one that socialism will destroy your country by making it rack up a bunch of debt.
Do you see me claiming that socialism will destroy the country by way of debt? I think that socialism would destroy the country if fully implemented, but I'm also confident that it won't ever get the chance to, on account of the Senate/House traditionally going to the party that doesn't win the Presidency.

condude1 wrote:I have serious doubts about any candidate who thinks that we can actually cut down the debt by significant quantities while maintaining our robust economy.I thought you were just saying Sanders was the opposite?
I'm lost as to where you think I was just saying Sanders was the opposite, but I was speaking more generally in this sentence. I do not, off-the-cuff, know if Sanders is promising to cut the debt, make college free, raise the min wage, get rid of crime, make all health care free, and pave the roads with gold, but it seems unlikely that you can simply do all of that. To make one thing free, another thing has to pay for it. TANSTAAFL.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby asudevil » 20 Feb 2016, 21:21

joe92 wrote:
OldBaldGuy wrote:"Cruz? He's the worst of them all. "Only if you believe the Constitution of the US is not the blueprint for the greatest country in the history of the world. The United States has defeated Nazism and Communism, bringing freedom to millions.


He doesn't believe in the constitution himself. He wants to put the word of God, a fictional being, above all else. That goes against the constitution. He has stated time after time that gays and atheists should not be respected (I think he even went so far as to say they have no place in the US but I have no source for that) and opposes every bill put forwards on equality. He opposes abortion and loves buttered cows. But worst of all, he opposes Net Neutrality (fun fact, his donors include Comcast). He is completely and utterly wrong in his views on Net Neutrality. It is a bipartisan issue is without a doubt one of the most important issues of today.


He basically wants the Christian version of the Muslim Shariah law ... follow God ... Follow God's Rules...run the country off that.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby condude1 » 20 Feb 2016, 21:22

GregorV wrote:
condude1 wrote:I have serious doubts about any candidate who thinks that we can actually cut down the debt by significant quantities while maintaining our robust economy.I thought you were just saying Sanders was the opposite?
I'm lost as to where you think I was just saying Sanders was the opposite, but I was speaking more generally in this sentence. I do not, off-the-cuff, know if Sanders is promising to cut the debt, make college free, raise the min wage, get rid of crime, make all health care free, and pave the roads with gold, but it seems unlikely that you can simply do all of that. To make one thing free, another thing has to pay for it. TANSTAAFL.[/quote]
But I thought you said that running up debt was no big deal, and that the only way to have a decent economy was to do so? $18 trillion is a lot of money, and I'm sure half that would cover all these plans, don't you agree?
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby TreciKorpus BiH » 20 Feb 2016, 21:23

GoRunGetToTheChopper wrote:Hillary is a corrupt liar.

Bernie is a radical moron who doesnt understand how the economy works.

Id probably prefer Bernie, because since hes such a radical liberal he wont be able to get anything done. If Hillary wins, she will continue the damage Obama already caused.


Same here, if I supported them. not saying the Republican canidates are any better.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby GregorV » 20 Feb 2016, 21:29

condude1 wrote:
GregorV wrote:
condude1 wrote:I have serious doubts about any candidate who thinks that we can actually cut down the debt by significant quantities while maintaining our robust economy.I thought you were just saying Sanders was the opposite?
I'm lost as to where you think I was just saying Sanders was the opposite, but I was speaking more generally in this sentence. I do not, off-the-cuff, know if Sanders is promising to cut the debt, make college free, raise the min wage, get rid of crime, make all health care free, and pave the roads with gold, but it seems unlikely that you can simply do all of that. To make one thing free, another thing has to pay for it. TANSTAAFL.

But I thought you said that running up debt was no big deal, and that the only way to have a decent economy was to do so? $18 trillion is a lot of money, and I'm sure half that would cover all these plans, don't you agree?[/quote]

I said that the debt has remained roughly proportional to the size of the economy. You're conflating the ideas that high debt is not bad when combined with a large economy, and the idea that a decent economy requires a country to go into some kind of debt.

Also: National debt is at 19 trillion according to the debt clock, I was using number from Feb 1st. http://www.usdebtclock.org/

If we take a look at that, we see that the government is spending a LOT on Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security. Those values are only going up as yet more of the Baby Boomers age out of the working populace and start drawing on those funds.

Debt isn't fungible, we can't just say "Oh, well. Let's take 100M from Defense and another 50M from government pensions, and slice a couple million off of Highway Maintenance, and we can now pay for every college student!". The fundamental problem with Bernie's plans is how he's going to change the tax code. If the tax code doesn't get changed, then there is no way that he can successfully implement his plans. This ties back into why it's very important for Bernie to have the Senate and House. Without control there, he's running on a populist movement with no actual backing to it.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby TreciKorpus BiH » 20 Feb 2016, 21:31

GregorV wrote:Hillary would be the hands-down better President than Bernie.

This does not mean that she would be a good President.

Bernie is running the same populist movement that Trump is, but he would need absurd amounts of Congressional support to enact half of his policies, at least among the very few policies that he's actually outlined.


I beg to differ
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby GregorV » 20 Feb 2016, 21:36

BROCKENBROUGH wrote:
GregorV wrote:Hillary would be the hands-down better President than Bernie.

This does not mean that she would be a good President.

Bernie is running the same populist movement that Trump is, but he would need absurd amounts of Congressional support to enact half of his policies, at least among the very few policies that he's actually outlined.


I beg to differ


As an objective matter, Hillary has more experience in foreign policy, politics, compromising, and more. Bernie has lived his life off of the public's bill, in a local sense. He has introduced 5235 bills into the House or Senate. 233 passed both chambers. This is not indicative of an ability to compromise or work together. Since 2007, he's only sponsored 22 bills that passed both chambers.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby TreciKorpus BiH » 20 Feb 2016, 21:39

GregorV wrote:
BROCKENBROUGH wrote:
GregorV wrote:Hillary would be the hands-down better President than Bernie.

This does not mean that she would be a good President.

Bernie is running the same populist movement that Trump is, but he would need absurd amounts of Congressional support to enact half of his policies, at least among the very few policies that he's actually outlined.


I beg to differ


As an objective matter, Hillary has more experience in foreign policy, politics, compromising, and more. Bernie has lived his life off of the public's bill, in a local sense. He has introduced 5235 bills into the House or Senate. 233 passed both chambers. This is not indicative of an ability to compromise or work together. Since 2007, he's only sponsored 22 bills that passed both chambers.


I don't think that america is ready for a woman president yet, and I'm not in favor of democrats.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby Diplomat 1966 » 20 Feb 2016, 21:45

I'm supporting Bernie!
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