Hillary or Bernie?

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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby Elric Hazard » 20 Feb 2016, 19:46

-edited slightly, though I don't think it has any bearing on the point you make.

Truly, some might call clean water regualtions or even banking regulations an intrusion.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby asudevil » 20 Feb 2016, 19:54

Elric Hazard wrote:-edited slightly, though I don't think it has any bearing on the point you make.

Truly, some might call clean water regualtions or even banking regulations an intrusion.


Considering he's a socialist and is talking about raising minimum wage...cheap/free college...better health care...blah blah blah...

MANY people would consider that MORE intrusion (even if its "positive" intrusion)
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby condude1 » 20 Feb 2016, 20:15

GregorV wrote:Hillary would be the hands-down better President than Bernie.

This does not mean that she would be a good President.

Bernie is running the same populist movement that Trump is, but he would need absurd amounts of Congressional support to enact half of his policies, at least among the very few policies that he's actually outlined.


So your complaints with Sanders are that a) he's charismatic and tapping into a legitimate source of frustration with the American public, and b) that the system's so broken that someone who's campaigning on trying to fix it won't get anywhere. Isn't that all the MORE reason to vote Sanders?

Anyways, I'm Canadian, but still paying attention to the primaries. Sanders' views align with mine in almost every case, and he seems 100% sincere in campaigning for them. That itself would be enough to win my vote.

The kneejerk "SOCIALIST!!!" response that people give in reaction to Sanders is little more than decades of conditioning (since the start of the Cold War, anything that resembles communism in any way has been attacked viciously). Fiscally, how much worse can it be than America's... $17 trillion of debt? Neither traditional Republicans nor traditional Democrats fixed that, so why not think outside the box a bit?
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby GregorV » 20 Feb 2016, 20:30

condude1 wrote:
GregorV wrote:Hillary would be the hands-down better President than Bernie.

This does not mean that she would be a good President.

Bernie is running the same populist movement that Trump is, but he would need absurd amounts of Congressional support to enact half of his policies, at least among the very few policies that he's actually outlined.


So your complaints with Sanders are that a) he's charismatic and tapping into a legitimate source of frustration with the American public, and b) that the system's so broken that someone who's campaigning on trying to fix it won't get anywhere. Isn't that all the MORE reason to vote Sanders?

Anyways, I'm Canadian, but still paying attention to the primaries. Sanders' views align with mine in almost every case, and he seems 100% sincere in campaigning for them. That itself would be enough to win my vote.

The kneejerk "SOCIALIST!!!" response that people give in reaction to Sanders is little more than decades of conditioning (since the start of the Cold War, anything that resembles communism in any way has been attacked viciously). Fiscally, how much worse can it be than America's... $17 trillion of debt? Neither traditional Republicans nor traditional Democrats fixed that, so why not think outside the box a bit?


My complaint about Bernie is that it would require the Senate to flip, the House to hold, and him to win the primary and general elections in order to get his proposals introduced to Congressional floor. These things seem unlikely based on voter demographics so far, which have shown that Bernie is attracting the interest of the populace which votes the least (college students). In opposition to that, Hillary is getting votes from the people who turn out the most (seniors/middle aged). Another major problem with Bernie's campaign is the massive lack of political support.

Just because Ron Paul did well in Iowa back a few years ago, doesn't mean I ever thought he had a chance at winning the general. We see this every year. To get my vote, Bernie would have to actually demonstrate how his yet-to-be-defined policies would help America, one of the most diverse countries that accepts over a million immigrants a year. Pointing to homogeneous, monocultural countries such as Sweden and Denmark don't do it for me.

Don't put words into my mouth.

Furthermore: A lot of people like to point to the debt calculation as a damning bit of evidence that America's leadership is terrible. (18 trillion, by the way). Does it really need fixing? Is it even a problem?

Government spending has remained relatively constant as a % of the American economy since 1985. Our economy has never been larger, and debt has risen correspondingly. Besides, what would reducing the debt mean? If we reduce the debt from 18 trillion down to, say, 3 trillion (a massive change), then all we've really done is cut government spending from 22.5% of the economy to 19% of the economy.

I have serious doubts about any candidate who thinks that we can actually cut down the debt by significant quantities while maintaining our robust economy.

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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby Otherwise » 20 Feb 2016, 20:40

[Stupid comments deleted by author, joke inserted instead]

[Could not find joke- pending]
Last edited by Otherwise on 20 Feb 2016, 20:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby GregorV » 20 Feb 2016, 20:40

I would find it extremely difficult to argue that regulating:

Clean water
Banks
Wages
Corporations
Health care
Gun ownership
Airlines
Abortions
etc.

isn't government intrusion. Whether it's good or bad intrusion is up for interpretation, but it's certainly intrusion.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby joe92 » 20 Feb 2016, 20:45

IDontPlayThisGame wrote:I think it is about time to have a girl as President, but I'm not sure if Hillary is the one.

Should that ever be a contributing factor on who you vote to lead the most powerful country in the world? I've heard several people say that and it really frustrates me. If both candidates stood for exactly the same thing it could then be a deciding factor. I agree, having a woman president would be a great role model for girls across the world (although she would be far from the first female leader of a powerful nation). But, they are worlds apart in what they stand for. What is or isn't between their legs should have absolutely no sway in how you vote.

IDontPlayThisGame wrote:Trump is stupid, but he clearly resembles Adolf Hitler in his policies and I don't want history to repeat itself there.

Trump is undoubtedly a bigoted moron who I don't want to see run a garage sale, let alone a country, but to compare him to Hitler is far-fetched beyond belief. If Trump was elected there is 0 chance he would invade his neighbours. There is 0 chance he would persecute minorities on the same level Hitler did. He would be racist and create tensions undoubtedly but to think he would be comparable to Hitler is wild.

GregorV wrote:Hillary would be the hands-down better President than Bernie.

This does not mean that she would be a good President.

Bernie is running the same populist movement that Trump is, but he would need absurd amounts of Congressional support to enact half of his policies, at least among the very few policies that he's actually outlined.

That makes no sense. Populist movements are exactly what politicians should be running for. Populist movements create things like unions, the NHS, welfare states, free education. If you aren't trying to make your country a better place then what is it you are trying to do exactly? Except get the title of President.

Elric Hazard wrote:I go with what I always go with, "Who is least likely to start a nuclear war?"

Is anyone likely to start a nuclear war?

condude1 wrote:So your complaints with Sanders are that a) he's charismatic and tapping into a legitimate source of frustration with the American public, and b) that the system's so broken that someone who's campaigning on trying to fix it won't get anywhere. Isn't that all the MORE reason to vote Sanders?

Anyways, I'm Canadian, but still paying attention to the primaries. Sanders' views align with mine in almost every case, and he seems 100% sincere in campaigning for them. That itself would be enough to win my vote.

The kneejerk "SOCIALIST!!!" response that people give in reaction to Sanders is little more than decades of conditioning (since the start of the Cold War, anything that resembles communism in any way has been attacked viciously). Fiscally, how much worse can it be than America's... $17 trillion of debt? Neither traditional Republicans nor traditional Democrats fixed that, so why not think outside the box a bit?

Agree completely.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby OldBaldGuy » 20 Feb 2016, 20:49

"Cruz? He's the worst of them all. "Only if you believe the Constitution of the US is not the blueprint for the greatest country in the history of the world. The United States has defeated Nazism and Communism, bringing freedom to millions.
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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby condude1 » 20 Feb 2016, 20:56

GregorV wrote:
condude1 wrote:
GregorV wrote:Hillary would be the hands-down better President than Bernie.

This does not mean that she would be a good President.

Bernie is running the same populist movement that Trump is, but he would need absurd amounts of Congressional support to enact half of his policies, at least among the very few policies that he's actually outlined.


So your complaints with Sanders are that a) he's charismatic and tapping into a legitimate source of frustration with the American public, and b) that the system's so broken that someone who's campaigning on trying to fix it won't get anywhere. Isn't that all the MORE reason to vote Sanders?

Anyways, I'm Canadian, but still paying attention to the primaries. Sanders' views align with mine in almost every case, and he seems 100% sincere in campaigning for them. That itself would be enough to win my vote.

The kneejerk "SOCIALIST!!!" response that people give in reaction to Sanders is little more than decades of conditioning (since the start of the Cold War, anything that resembles communism in any way has been attacked viciously). Fiscally, how much worse can it be than America's... $17 trillion of debt? Neither traditional Republicans nor traditional Democrats fixed that, so why not think outside the box a bit?


My complaint about Bernie is that it would require the Senate to flip, the House to hold, and him to win the primary and general elections in order to get his proposals introduced to Congressional floor. It's not an all or nothing thing. If he can't get everything he wants passed, I don't see a reason he can't fall back on slightly less progressive policies.These things seem unlikely based on voter demographics so far, which have shown that Bernie is attracting the interest of the populace which votes the least (college students). In opposition to that, Hillary is getting votes from the people who turn out the most (seniors/middle aged). Another major problem with Bernie's campaign is the massive lack of political support. Here's the thing, college students traditionally vote the least. In the recent primaries, they've turned out in much greater numbers supporting him. I actually am worried that if Clinton wins the nomination, Trump's sway among younger voters, and his version of the populist movement, will sway a lot of people his way. In Trump v. Sanders, however, I think Sanders would be able to hold his own, and probably beat Trump on his home turf: the people who want change.

Just because Ron Paul did well in Iowa back a few years ago, doesn't mean I ever thought he had a chance at winning the general. We see this every year. To get my vote, Bernie would have to actually demonstrate how his yet-to-be-defined policies would help America, one of the most diverse countries that accepts over a million immigrants a year. Pointing to homogeneous, monocultural countries such as Sweden and Denmark don't do it for me.I'm kind of confused as to what you want here. You're saying that because America is more diverse than Sweden and Denmark, and accepts X number of immigrants, somehow Sanders' platform is weaker? You're going to have to explain this one to me.
Don't put words into my mouth.

Furthermore: A lot of people like to point to the debt calculation as a damning bit of evidence that America's leadership is terrible. (18 trillion, by the way). Does it really need fixing? Is it even a problem?

Government spending has remained relatively constant as a % of the American economy since 1985. Our economy has never been larger, and debt has risen correspondingly. Besides, what would reducing the debt mean? If we reduce the debt from 18 trillion down to, say, 3 trillion (a massive change), then all we've really done is cut government spending from 22.5% of the economy to 19% of the economy. So what's the problem with running a deficit? I don't see how you can simultaneously hold this view, and the one that socialism will destroy your country by making it rack up a bunch of debt.

I have serious doubts about any candidate who thinks that we can actually cut down the debt by significant quantities while maintaining our robust economy.I thought you were just saying Sanders was the opposite?

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Re: Hillary or Bernie?

Postby joe92 » 20 Feb 2016, 20:59

OldBaldGuy wrote:"Cruz? He's the worst of them all. "Only if you believe the Constitution of the US is not the blueprint for the greatest country in the history of the world. The United States has defeated Nazism and Communism, bringing freedom to millions.


He doesn't believe in the constitution himself. He wants to put the word of God, a fictional being, above all else. That goes against the constitution. He has stated time after time that gays and atheists should not be respected (I think he even went so far as to say they have no place in the US but I have no source for that) and opposes every bill put forwards on equality. He opposes abortion and loves buttered cows. But worst of all, he opposes Net Neutrality (fun fact, his donors include Comcast). He is completely and utterly wrong in his views on Net Neutrality. It is a bipartisan issue is without a doubt one of the most important issues of today.
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