Brexit

A forum to seperate the more serious discussions from the lighter topics in Off-topic.

Re: Brexit

Postby rd45 » 24 Jun 2016, 22:27

joe92 wrote:Here's hoping she does live long enough to see how her very existence as a Monarch is ruining the lives of millions.

Joe, she's known that for decades. It's just that she doesn't give a fuck.
User avatar
rd45
 
Posts: 350
Joined: 13 Oct 2014, 15:41
Location: tethered to the logic of homo sapien
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1302
All-game rating: 1329
Timezone: GMT

Re: Brexit

Postby rd45 » 24 Jun 2016, 22:29

sjg11 wrote:1. I don't see how Scotland stays in the UK now.

For me, this is the only silver lining. Somewhere nearby to emigrate.
User avatar
rd45
 
Posts: 350
Joined: 13 Oct 2014, 15:41
Location: tethered to the logic of homo sapien
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1302
All-game rating: 1329
Timezone: GMT

Re: Brexit

Postby Malevolence » 24 Jun 2016, 22:57

rd45 wrote:
sjg11 wrote:1. I don't see how Scotland stays in the UK now.

For me, this is the only silver lining. Somewhere nearby to emigrate.


You're welcome to come to the States if we're still around post November.
Creator of 1939, Superpowers, Future of the World, Fate of the World, Fantasy CYOC, Outbreak, History of the World, Italian Renaissance Diplomacy, 21st Century Diplomacy, Inheritors
User avatar
Malevolence
 
Posts: 7585
Joined: 20 May 2011, 22:01
Location: Washington, DC
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1049)
All-game rating: (1031)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Brexit

Postby sjg11 » 24 Jun 2016, 23:19

Malevolence wrote:
rd45 wrote:
sjg11 wrote:1. I don't see how Scotland stays in the UK now.

For me, this is the only silver lining. Somewhere nearby to emigrate.


You're welcome to come to the States if we're still around post November.

That's becoming a more tempting proposition.
One of the people in charge of the Mafia forum.
Telleo wrote:The mafia forum, to them,
Sir SJG's known as a gem,
He writes a good game,
and runs it the same,
Oh what a perfect GM!

Come on Arsenal!
User avatar
sjg11
 
Posts: 17082
Joined: 24 Dec 2010, 15:30
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (908)
All-game rating: (899)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Brexit

Postby rd45 » 24 Jun 2016, 23:46

sjg11 wrote:
Malevolence wrote:
rd45 wrote:[quote="sjg11"]
1. I don't see how Scotland stays in the UK now.

For me, this is the only silver lining. Somewhere nearby to emigrate.


You're welcome to come to the States if we're still around post November.

That's becoming a more tempting proposition.[/quote]
What it needs is a massive new island in the mid Atlantic. Send all the brexiteers and all the trumpies and they can have if to themselves.
User avatar
rd45
 
Posts: 350
Joined: 13 Oct 2014, 15:41
Location: tethered to the logic of homo sapien
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1302
All-game rating: 1329
Timezone: GMT

Re: Brexit

Postby sjg11 » 24 Jun 2016, 23:48

rd45 wrote:
sjg11 wrote:
Malevolence wrote:You're welcome to come to the States if we're still around post November.

That's becoming a more tempting proposition.

What it needs is a massive new island in the mid Atlantic. Send all the brexiteers and all the trumpies and they can have if to themselves.

At least Trump can only wreak havoc for a maximum of eight years. Last night's result is permanent.
One of the people in charge of the Mafia forum.
Telleo wrote:The mafia forum, to them,
Sir SJG's known as a gem,
He writes a good game,
and runs it the same,
Oh what a perfect GM!

Come on Arsenal!
User avatar
sjg11
 
Posts: 17082
Joined: 24 Dec 2010, 15:30
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (908)
All-game rating: (899)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Brexit

Postby Malevolence » 25 Jun 2016, 00:11

sjg11 wrote:At least Trump can only wreak havoc for a maximum of eight years. Last night's result is permanent.


Just to be entirely realistic. Most realistic scenario in my opinion:
UK leaves the EU
Scotland leaves the UK
Northern Ireland Reunites with Ireland proper, making the UK of England and Wales
In approximately 20 years, after the current European Politicians are all out of office and need not worry about re election, this shell of a UK re applies for membership to the EU, and is accepted, after becoming an example of the cost.
Creator of 1939, Superpowers, Future of the World, Fate of the World, Fantasy CYOC, Outbreak, History of the World, Italian Renaissance Diplomacy, 21st Century Diplomacy, Inheritors
User avatar
Malevolence
 
Posts: 7585
Joined: 20 May 2011, 22:01
Location: Washington, DC
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1049)
All-game rating: (1031)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Brexit

Postby super_dipsy » 25 Jun 2016, 08:09

joe92 wrote:Here's hoping she does live long enough to see how her very existence as a Monarch is ruining the lives of millions.

Gosh. I know there are people who don't like the fact that we have a monarch in the UK, but I don't think I have ever heard the idea that the monarchy is ruining the lives of millions :shock:

As for the rest of the debate, I can't help thinking of Churchill expressing the view that
democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time
. Democracy is absolutely an imperfect beast, but it is what it is. The difference in votes was over a million. Like it or not, the people have decided. While we can all argue that they were misinformed, or unable to understand the ramifications, or followed their own personal agendas, or voted based on personalities, we can never know. That is one of the pitfalls of democracy. All we do know is that even with the doom and gloom consequences being painted in large letters for weeks across the media, people felt strongly enough to put their mark against Leave in their millions.

It is a little unfair to them for us to just assume they were all conned. When this debate started I posted to say that in the end the decision would probably not be an economic one at all but would more likely be based on what people want the country to be. Yes, this may result in the UK being reduced (or possibly decimated) in terms of influence, economy and state, but I suspect a lot of Brexit voters had at least an inkling of this risk. It could also be that the nation (UK, E+W, whatever it is) might surprise people in the coming decades although at the moment that is hard to imagine.

However the underlying fact I believe to all of this is a decision about whether to continue ceding powers to a central European entity in the interests of a single Europe or to go back to a model of 'controlling oneself'. When I talk to Brexiteers, this is always one of the main points brought up. It may be to do with immigration, economics, security, day-to-day living etc but however it expresses itself it always comes down to not liking the idea of the European project. If I had a pound for every person who has said that if only the EU had remained a common market focused around trade and removing inhibitors to trade within the community then they would have voted to stay, I would be very rich. But instead a lot of people pointed to the refusal to grant any meaningful reforms even in the face of a referendum as a confirmation that this would never change. Ironically, now we have voted to leave it would appear from some of the EU comments that they may now be realizing the federalist agenda is too hard a sell, at least for the moment :). I'm reminded of one journalist writing after Obama came over to tell us all to vote remain. The journalist mused on how the American people would react if he told them to vote for making the Supreme Court secondary to the European Court (or some other higher court). For many I suspect that the continual interference in local activities by the EU was the root of the issue. Leaving the common market is a HUGE price to pay of course. We will only see how big a price in the coming decades.

I raise one final academic thought that I find fascinating. For those who do not know the EU, it decided to invert the traditional British structure of government, and I wonder how much that has had to do with the way the project has developed and the high degree of Euro-scepticism across the EU as epitomized by the Leave vote in the UK. The UK structure is two houses, one elected and one appointed. The elected house sets the agenda, comes up with the legislation and then passes it through the second house where it is refined and possibly returned for rework. In the EU, this is the other way up. Although the elected European leaders do meet to try to agree on major 'agenda' items, the 'house' controlling the vast majority of the agenda and drafting all the legislation and directives is the appointed one, while the reviewing house is the elected one. My own opinion is that this is at the heart of the democratic deficit often discussed by the European populations today. The problem is that the people coming up with and crafting legislation are not serving an electorate; they do not have to worry about getting voted out, only about not getting replaced by those who appoint them. So it is natural for them to make the most of their job, and with a subliminal federalist drum-beat from the senior EU players it is natural that they will want to reach deeper and deeper into national issues to drag control into their own sphere. It almost seems that a lot of what the EU has become has stemmed from this basic structure of having the unelected running the legislative show and the elected simply reviewing / stamping the outcome.

But we are where we are. Now we have to be British ;) , keep calm and carry on. Until we are annexed by Iceland...
User avatar
super_dipsy
Premium Member
 
Posts: 12103
Joined: 04 Nov 2009, 17:43
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (931)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Brexit

Postby rd45 » 25 Jun 2016, 08:18

Malevolence wrote:Just to be entirely realistic. Most realistic scenario in my opinion:
UK leaves the EU
Scotland leaves the UK
Northern Ireland Reunites with Ireland proper, making the UK of England and Wales
In approximately 20 years, after the current European Politicians are all out of office and need not worry about re election, this shell of a UK re applies for membership to the EU, and is accepted, after becoming an example of the cost.

If it could turn out that way, those who survive the transition in some kind of reasonable shape might look back (maybe 10+ years later again, after a rump-UK has rejoined & re-adjusted) and think of it as a painful but worthwhile process. Certainly to have an independent Scotland & a reunited Ireland would be accidental but positive side-effects.

But there are two reasons why I think the last part won't happen.

First, the knock-on effects in the rest of the EU. There's already at least as much anti-EU & nationalist sentiment in Denmark, Netherlands & other countries as there ever has been in (some parts of) the UK. Those elements will be looking for their own exit strategies now. There are elections coming up in Spain & France that could easily stir up further anti-EU movements there too. How long does Greece stay bound into a fragmenting EU? Now it's clear you can leave, you need a much more compelling reason to stay, and those reasons aren't as clear as they might be for several member states. There may not be much of an EU left to re-join after 20 years.

Second, the likely leadership of the rump-UK in the meantime. We could be looking at a reactionary, xenophobic, populist-right government in England for the foreseeable future - with Wales tagging along for the ride, and heartily regretting every moment. Given the generational split in the vote, a 20-year timeframe might just be enough for a couple of generations to die off & leave the predominantly younger remainers in the effective majority - but I'm not sure how well their progressive & internationalist ideals would survive, given the poisonous public discourse we'll be enjoying during that time. Not to mention 20 years of neo-liberal austerity budgets.
User avatar
rd45
 
Posts: 350
Joined: 13 Oct 2014, 15:41
Location: tethered to the logic of homo sapien
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1302
All-game rating: 1329
Timezone: GMT

Re: Brexit

Postby rd45 » 25 Jun 2016, 08:37

super_dipsy wrote:
joe92 wrote:Here's hoping she does live long enough to see how her very existence as a Monarch is ruining the lives of millions.

Gosh. I know there are people who don't like the fact that we have a monarch in the UK, but I don't think I have ever heard the idea that the monarchy is ruining the lives of millions :shock:

No disrespect, but if this is really the first time you've heard that monarchy is bad for you, then you need to start talking to some different people. Read some history - start at 1066 & work your way forward. We're still living with the consequences.

super_dipsy wrote:Now we have to be British ;) , keep calm and carry on.

Now that's a whole other subject: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jan/08/keep-calm-and-carry-on-posters-austerity-ubiquity-sinister-implications

Owen Hatherley wrote:The power of Keep Calm and Carry On comes from a yearning for an actual or imaginary English patrician attitude of stiff upper lips and muddling through. This is, however, something that largely survives only in the popular imagination, in a country devoted to services and consumption, where elections are decided on the basis of house-price value, and given to sudden, mawkish outpourings of sentiment. The poster isn’t just a case of the return of the repressed, it is rather the return of repression itself. It is a nostalgia for the state of being repressed – solid, stoic, public spirited, as opposed to the depoliticised, hysterical and privatised reality of Britain over the last 30 years.
User avatar
rd45
 
Posts: 350
Joined: 13 Oct 2014, 15:41
Location: tethered to the logic of homo sapien
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1302
All-game rating: 1329
Timezone: GMT

PreviousNext

Return to Debates

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests