Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Postby beowulf7 » 29 Mar 2016, 16:03

There's not many prouder of their country than me but I'm for staying. I think we're better in Europe and Europe is better for us being there - we act as an anchor against some of the policies that the Franco-German axis might otherwise push through.

I don't buy the "immigration is the greatest issue we face" line. Sorry, and this is not personal, but I see that as largely something peddled by those appealing to innate xenophobia of the masses (in particular the elderly). UKIP, judge a man by the friends you keep - it can't be complete coincidence that the views of the anti-immigration lobby and the white rule folks keep on aligning so much. This is clearly an issue which needs managing - not one you can just avoid by pulling up the drawbridge.

And, WASPs, I'm white, older, my politics are centre-right, I'm a fan of the Empire, Agincourt,Cressy & Waterloo and I live in an area with plenty of immigrants only 70 miles from Dover. If there's one thing I've come to understand about "Britishness" is that it is a construct and not genetic. I know plenty of non-white people/immigrants that display what I think of as the best of British values (generosity of spirit, support for the under-dog, "playing the white man") and plenty of "here since the Norman conquest" who make me ashamed to share the planet. (Psst: immigrants are hard working people often with more sense of sharing hardship than us rich folks)

So...Europe and its laws against sausage, hair-dryers or whatever the Sun & Mirror want to froth about next. We've never really fully engaged and maybe we will never will, but there is scope to alter things (or even ignore things) if we want. Lets get in there and make the system work.

Free trade, freer travel, greater exposure to non-UK people, a more world encompassing view amongst our youth - this all works for me

I love my country and, on balance, I like my country being part of Europe.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Keirador » 29 Mar 2016, 21:13

beowulf7 wrote:my politics are centre-right

Wait.
. . .
What?
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Re: Brexit

Postby beowulf7 » 30 Mar 2016, 18:53

lol - allowing for the difference from one side of the pond to the other but yes. Vote Liberal or Tory, manage a team of 50 and often fire people, have run my own business and will again, support selective education, academising schools, pay for performance, curbs on union power and tax cuts. In general I'm against state ownership and (actually, I'm not sure what other policies the UK left actually has these days), let's say "everything Corbyn"

But I'm also for free education, free health care, increased immigration, safety nets for the unlucky (and even the unwise), gun control, and lets say "everything Trump"
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Re: Brexit

Postby Jegpeg » 31 Mar 2016, 03:23

I think we should leave the EU.

On immigration I am for controlled immigration but against the uncontrolled immigration that comes from the EU. We have more historic connections with commonwealth countries than Eastern Europe but those from the commonwealth are only allowed to move here if they can prove they will make a positive contribution to the UK where anyone from EU countries can settle in the UK whatever skills they do or do not have.

The key issue as I see it however is independence. I was only a kid at the time but my understanding was that in the 1975 referendum the "common market" was about free trade and little else. The vast majority of the public were not aware of the meaning of "ever closer union" even if they knew of the clause. The UK is always pulling in the opposite direction we try to negotiate to give up less of our own sovereignty but it would be better for all involved if we left those who want union to continue the process without us. Let me give an example of the difference in thinking.

At the time the pound was forced to leave the ERM the majority in the UK thought this was evidence that exchange rates between EU countries needs to be determined by the market. The French and the Germans thought it was evidence that rather than being kept within a band they should be completely fixed (i.e. a single currency) and interest rates should be set by the ECB not individual nations. When Greece (Ireland, Portugal etc to a lesser extent) had higher inflation than the rest of the EU leading to exports not being able to compete with imports which in turn led to huge government debt the view in the central core of the EU is that the Greek government had too much autonomy and Greece would be fine in the Eurozone if only even more of its financial policies were controlled by the European commission.

Something in the news which I am surprised has not been linked with the Brexit debate is Tata steel being put up for sale. There is talk of Government subsidies or nationalisation if a private buyer is not found but subsidies are against EU regulations (and it would be very hard to convince the European commissioners that nationalising a loss making factory that no-one else wants is not a state subsidy). The problem of course is caused by China flooding the market as their home requirements for steel has plummeted. The USA has imposed a 276% import tax on Chinese Steel so American steel producers can still make a profit, the UK has to have the rate determined by the EC of 9%. I am not saying huge import duties or nationalisation is the solution to Tata but the decision should be with our government not some unelected officials in Brussels.
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Re: Brexit

Postby V » 06 Apr 2016, 21:42

Jegpeg, so well put. I hope the arguments are as clearly stated by those contributing to this debate in the UK press.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Malevolence » 02 May 2016, 00:21

These are all good arguments. This seems quite relevant just as something to lighten to mood a moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6a_weyzkY4


On a more direct note, something that I don't think has quite been addressed is Brexit in the context of other events in Europe and beyond. Throughout democracies worldwide, nationalism is seemingly very much on the rise. That nationalism ,especially in Europe (Napoleonic France, Germany, Soviets) has been the root cause (or one of) for Britain historically. Pushing for that by leaving this collective security arrangement would serve to exacerbate this lurch back towards this nationalist Europe. Something to consider.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Octavious » 17 Jun 2016, 10:42

The Great British Climate Referendum

It feels like forever since the Prime Minister surprised everyone by offering the British people a referendum on changing the climate, but finally we are almost there. Brits up and down the country, who have long made complaining about the weather something of a national sport, for the first time will actually be able to take action. Latest polling have put both sides neck and neck, with the small lead once enjoyed by Climate Retainers evaporating under relentless attack by the Change campaign. The Change campaign leader speaks to us today about his views on precipitation.

“Look, firstly let me knock aside this ludicrous accusation by the Retainers that we want to ban all rain. This is utter nonsense, and quite frankly they should be ashamed of themselves for suggesting it. What we are asking for in the Change campaign is a points based precipitation system in which we get the rain our economy needs at the times it is convenient for us. I think this is a sensible policy, a fair policy, and by far the best policy for a modern Britain in the new millennium.”

When asked about his controversial comments about preventing some forms of rain falling on the country completely, his response was clear.

“What I have been saying for some time, and the vast majority of people in this country agree with me, is that some rain, and in particular acid rain blowing over from the continent, is bad for Britain and should be kept out. And I make no apologies for standing up for the genuine concerns of the British people on this crucial point.”

A spokeswoman for the Retain campaign was quick to respond.

“Once again the Climate Changers have completely failed to understand how precipitation even works. There is not a special type of rain that contains acid. There is acidity to some degree in all rain, and its root cause is factory emissions rather than climate. You can’t just change the climate and expect acid rain to suddenly vanish”

She continued…

“What I am increasingly distressed by is the fact that we are almost at referendum day and still we have no idea what kind of climate the Change campaign actually wants. Are they going for an Albanian style Mediterranean climate, or more of a Scandinavian climate such as you’d find in Norway? We just don’t know, and the increasing uncertainty is already damaging the economy.

“Changers are promising all things to all people. I’ve heard them promising mild winters to pensioners one minute, only for them to promise weeks of snow to younger voters literally hours later. Now, we all know the joke that if you put 10 weathermen in a room you get 11 different forecasts, but every serious meteorological agency in this country and abroad all agree that you can’t have a mild and snowy winter. It’s high time the Changers were honest with the British public and actually told them what it is that they’re voting for.”

The debate continues.
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Re: Brexit

Postby super_dipsy » 17 Jun 2016, 15:40

My girlfriend has no issue at all with which way to vote. She is for Brexit because we went to France last year and she was horrified they didn't stamp her brand new passport, and she wants it STAMPED!

PS. I offered to dig out my John Bull printing set I inherited to stamp it for her, but I got 'the look'. Pyjamas at the bottom of the stairs for me :(
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Re: Brexit

Postby ExiledAtHome » 18 Jun 2016, 20:13

RIP Jo Cox.
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Re: Brexit

Postby V » 24 Jun 2016, 07:10

I have not bothered for many years to await the result of any political event. But I did tonight. Happy days. I feel British again. With all respect to the 48% of Brits that held the contrary view. Let's do this together. We are can really show how that name Great Britain was earned.
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