Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Postby V » 07 Jan 2018, 02:33

I used the word “deserve”, not “right”, intentionally.
If applying to any foreign land for residency, where there is no legal right to residence exists, it is the privilege of that land to expect something from the applicant in return for admittance. That’s all I’m saying & I think it entirely reasonable that any country should be entitled to expect that.

A legal right to residence is an entirely separate conversation, that I was not addressing.
My comment was a simple statement that residency applications, where no legal right exists, are usually not as onerous as folks make out. I’ve done many as you can see & was always admitted, even if it sometimes took up to a year to obtain approval for legal residency.

I do sympathise that it would appear a string of unfortunate circumstances have occurred that meant something you previously had as a right might now require an application. All I said was that the application is usually little more than a formality & no one should ever forsake any dreams or ambitions over such trivial issues.

Your desire to live & work in places like Romania reminds me of myself many years past & is admirable. If England reappears on your list of preferred destinations, I wouldn’t let a silly residency application prevent any future aspiration. That’s all I said & I don’t think it in any way makes me a bad person. You’re very quick to make judgemental statements about folks who mean no ill to yourself, or others.
Last edited by V on 07 Jan 2018, 02:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Postby BlunderCity » 07 Jan 2018, 02:34

nanooktheeskimo wrote:I see your point, but I don't think your parallel really works that well. One corrupt system was replaced with a slightly less corrupt but just as if not more exploitative system. Uber is better for consumers, for sure, but it's usually worse for the drivers.

Is that better? I'm not sure. I kinda don't think so, but YMMV (pun intended).


Actually, it's not Uber that destroyed the core of the earnings of taxi drivers. It's satellite navigation technology. Driving a taxi went from a skilled job to an unskilled one. In the past, to be a taxi driver, you needed to: 1- know how to drive 2- Know your way and know the street names. Today with sat nav, you only need to know how to drive. So the earnings of taxi drivers was going to come down anyway because we went from a situation where only trained drivers could do the job to anyone can do the job.

The bits of profits that Uber captured was the part that was due to the cartelisation of the industry. For decades, taxi lobbies were in bed with politicians to artificially reduce the number of taxis so prices remained high. I can think of no reason why we should accept that the taxi industry worked like the oil industry. in fact, cartels are illegal in most advanced economies.

There is no corruption on the part of Uber, just the fact that driving a taxi is no longer as lucrative at it once was. If drivers feel exploited, let them do something else. If that's the only thing they can do, then they need to learn other skills. Driving a taxi is now just an entry level job.
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Re: Brexit

Postby BlunderCity » 07 Jan 2018, 02:44

V wrote:That’s all I’m saying & I think it entirely reasonable that any country should be entitled to expect that.


No it's not reasonable because I cannot change the past. It's very different than saying any new applicant is subject to different rules, it's entirely their choice to live in the UK and you can't expect to get everything that you want. If you've spent three quarters of your adult life in a country, you are intrinsically linked to that place. It's not entirely your choice.
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Re: Brexit

Postby V » 07 Jan 2018, 02:51

OK, you feel that way, then we disagree on a detail.
I lived over 12 years of my adult life in Africa (at one time that was over half) but have no rights whatsoever there, now that I have left.
I later lived over 12 years in USA, during which I applied for and obtained citizenship. There I have rights. If legal rights are to be expected, then legal processes have to be followed.
That’s just reality that our views are not going to alter.
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Re: Brexit

Postby joe92 » 07 Mar 2018, 15:11

EU rebuffs UK vision for post-Brexit trade: https://www.ft.com/content/4d43e628-21f ... f715791301

Unsurprisingly the EU is wanting to negotiate the best possible deal out of Brexit, just like Britain is. I'm sure a Brexiteer is complaining bitterly about that. Shortly after May promised many great things involving Brexit at her Mansion speech the EU has said that most of it is impossible with our current inflexible stance (ironically, theirs is also an inflexible stance, but they do hold a much better negotiating position than we do). The current line, which has been repeated from day 1, is that unless we are a part of the customs union and the single market nearly everything that's being promised by our own politicians will not happen. So it continues to look like we're going to eventually cave and be in the customs union and single market by the end of the 2-year buffer period or we're going to be completely out and our economy is going to take a substantial hit when we leave. That middle ground is looking more and more unlikely.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Jegpeg » 07 Mar 2018, 20:20

joe92 wrote:EU rebuffs UK vision for post-Brexit trade: https://www.ft.com/content/4d43e628-21f ... f715791301

Unsurprisingly the EU is wanting to negotiate the best possible deal out of Brexit, just like Britain is. I'm sure a Brexiteer is complaining bitterly about that. Shortly after May promised many great things involving Brexit at her Mansion speech the EU has said that most of it is impossible with our current inflexible stance (ironically, theirs is also an inflexible stance, but they do hold a much better negotiating position than we do). The current line, which has been repeated from day 1, is that unless we are a part of the customs union and the single market nearly everything that's being promised by our own politicians will not happen. So it continues to look like we're going to eventually cave and be in the customs union and single market by the end of the 2-year buffer period or we're going to be completely out and our economy is going to take a substantial hit when we leave. That middle ground is looking more and more unlikely.


All that has happened so far is both sides have expressed their initial bargaining position which neither side expects will be accepted. It is the equivalent of going into a Eastern Market and offering $0.20 for a bag of rice, the store holder then says that is impossible the best he can offer is $20. We still don't know if it will sell for $2 or $5
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Re: Brexit

Postby Keirador » 07 Mar 2018, 23:41

Eh, it's NOT just a negotiation on the EU's part. It's a political statement. Brexiteers never seemed to understand or address this: exit from the EU will be treated punitively. This is not a question of trade agreements between rational and objective parties. For the EU, this is a question of survival. If one can gain the benefits of membership without the obligations, then the EU falls apart as a political force. The EU will inflict economic self-harm if the harm done to Britain is greater.
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Re: Brexit

Postby musashisamurai » 08 Mar 2018, 00:20

Keirador wrote:Eh, it's NOT just a negotiation on the EU's part. It's a political statement. Brexiteers never seemed to understand or address this: exit from the EU will be treated punitively. This is not a question of trade agreements between rational and objective parties. For the EU, this is a question of survival. If one can gain the benefits of membership without the obligations, then the EU falls apart as a political force. The EU will inflict economic self-harm if the harm done to Britain is greater.


This^

The EU doesn't want to say, cripple, the UK since they would be big trading partners and allies in NATO for most, but if anyone can leave the EU yet keep the benefits, the EU has no power. Its like nullification in the US; if States could decide to nullify Federal law and cherrypick what they want, Congress and the President have very little power.

If the UK wants to keep the upsides of EU membership, chances are, they will probably end up with zero ability to influence the EU and still having to uphold EU regulations and whatnot.
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Re: Brexit

Postby joe92 » 08 Mar 2018, 13:05

musashisamurai wrote:
Keirador wrote:Eh, it's NOT just a negotiation on the EU's part. It's a political statement. Brexiteers never seemed to understand or address this: exit from the EU will be treated punitively. This is not a question of trade agreements between rational and objective parties. For the EU, this is a question of survival. If one can gain the benefits of membership without the obligations, then the EU falls apart as a political force. The EU will inflict economic self-harm if the harm done to Britain is greater.


This^

The EU doesn't want to say, cripple, the UK since they would be big trading partners and allies in NATO for most, but if anyone can leave the EU yet keep the benefits, the EU has no power. Its like nullification in the US; if States could decide to nullify Federal law and cherrypick what they want, Congress and the President have very little power.

If the UK wants to keep the upsides of EU membership, chances are, they will probably end up with zero ability to influence the EU and still having to uphold EU regulations and whatnot.

Absolutely. That's been a long repeated point I've brought up. I can't say it any better than you two have so I'll just say I agree.

My personal hope is that we retain membership of the customs union and single market.
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Re: Brexit

Postby sjg11 » 09 Mar 2018, 02:05

Keirador wrote:Eh, it's NOT just a negotiation on the EU's part. It's a political statement. Brexiteers never seemed to understand or address this: exit from the EU will be treated punitively. This is not a question of trade agreements between rational and objective parties. For the EU, this is a question of survival. If one can gain the benefits of membership without the obligations, then the EU falls apart as a political force. The EU will inflict economic self-harm if the harm done to Britain is greater.

^This.

Which is also why sjg voted Remain.

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