Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 06 Jan 2018, 08:01

Not sure Uber is really a comparison you want to make. They take heavy advantage of their labor force, and will fold if they ever have to face a union organization by their drivers.

So yeah, not sure if Uber is what you want to hold up as your standard, given how heavily exploitative they are of their drivers.
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Re: Brexit

Postby super_dipsy » 06 Jan 2018, 08:19

BlunderCity wrote:And I knew you were going to cite that type of survey without caring for the meaning of words. "Attitudes to the EU" is not the same thing as wanting to withdraw from the European Union yet I have seen this parallel being made countless times over the last few years. Attitudes to the US Congress fell as low as 9%, it does not mean that Americans want to dissolve the United States. All those stats show is that there was a big woldwide recession (largely a product of the Anglo-American world) and populism was on the rise (as it is often the case in time of turmoil and the EU has been made the scapegoat). Care to show us how people would vote if asked for their country to leave the EU? Thought so.

Ah. Now I understand. If you read what I said, you will see I was never suggesting that people in the EU want to withdraw. What I actually said was
[quote "(June 2016)"]Many European countries have populations that do not have majority support for the EU.[/quote]
You interpret that as me suggesting that not supporting it means people want to get out. Absolutely not. What I said was what the survey said - that their attitude to the EU was negative. When someone says 'I don't think the EU is doing a good job' (=negative attitude) that is not at all like saying 'I want to leave the EU'. You can actually see that from the figures in the chart; if having a negative attitude to the EU was equivalent to wanting to leave the EU, the Brexit vote would have been much more heavily on leave according to that chart, but it wasn't because a negative attitude is NOT the same as wanting to pull out.

What I see now is that THAT is your agenda. You are so keen to make your points that you attribute points to me that I never made. I do not believe I have ANYWHERE said I think lots of EU countries want to leave. I have simply said that there is a populist movement (weaker following the Brexit vote, as I said) that does not feel the EU is doing a good job. I do not believe you can possibly deny that, even today, although as I say I think it is less than it was. Why else are some countries electing governments that are perceived as being 'anti' some of the EU initiatives?

To make it totally clear, I do not expect a mass exodus of countries from the EU. In fact, I would be extremely surprised. But if you want to have a reasoned debate, you have to try not to put words in other people's mouths that they did not say :)

By the way, on another note, I was in France when Macron was elected and I was actually lucky enough to see him because we were in Le Touquet and right outside his apartment when he came out! I think he will be excellent for France, although I say that with only a very surface-level knowledge of his policies etc.. He just feels to me like he is a good thing for France.
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Re: Brexit

Postby BlunderCity » 06 Jan 2018, 08:21

super_dipsy wrote:Say thank you ;)


Oh and I should probably reply to that also.

Yes, I thank you and I thank the whole of Britain for their vote. This is a very personal take on what Brexit means to me and my family. That might sound contradictory but I supported Brexit. As a Frenchman, and for the good of European unity, I want the UK out of the EU. Britain has done enough damage to the EU with its 40 years of sabotaging it from the inside. England exported hooliganism to Europe and Britain is doing the political equivalent with eurosketicism. I grew up in a country where popular euroskeptisicm was once unheard of and where a common European project was demanded by the people and the politicians were the ones dragging their feet. In the 50s, there were demonstrations demanding the EEC be created. Now, the cancer that is British eurosketicism has infected some parts of Europe. Enough is enough. I won't let a bunch of nativist populists and the ignorant hordes of morons who follow them wreck our union any longer. And with the UK out, we will be able to achieve what we could never do.

Sensing that it might happen, I saved a bottle of champagne for the night of the Brexit vote. For weeks, I dreamed of seeing myself popping it and shouting "God saves the Queen and above all, go fuck yourself Britain!" Finally, we could press on with the unification of Europe that I dream of (which is nothing like the end of our local culture by the way, that's another euroskeptic lie). Yet I never corked that bottle. As the result came in, I felt increasingly sad, depressed. I stayed up all night, stunned by the results and there was no champagne celebration.

I moved to the UK when I was 17 and spent 18 year of my life in the UK (most of the 90s and the entire 00s). My father was a corporate expat who felt that taking up a job at a US company based in London was a good career move. It was. A good career move and a good life move. We loved it in Britain. I wasn't even out of secondary school, it felt like an adventure. I had spent the previous two summers there, both times in Surrey and began supporting Chelsea, my host family's team (when they weren't what they are today). My dad, who isn't of German decent but is a germanophile and fluent in the language used to send me to Germany so I could also have the chance to speak it fluently but felt that at 15, it was time for me to brush up on my English. So moving to England wasn't uncharted territory for me but still a seismic change in my life.

After my baccalaureat, I took a year off and spent it studying English passing the First Certificate and Proficiency in English. I then went to Uni in London, studying economics. As a foreigner and a year before Maastricht came into force, I wasn't entitled to student grants and loans, just free tuition (which was for everyone at the time) but no matter. I was doing the odd job here and there and living at my parents. It wasn't easy with the language but when it comes to learning anything, there's nothing like being thrown in the deep end. I soon realised I wasn't like most foreigners, I had no interest in hanging around my fellow countrymen (and there are plenty in London). Nearly every friend I made during my time in London was British. I can say for sure that I was one of the most integrated foreigner in Britain. I even picked up a sort of estuary accent. I was doing everything that the British did, even the food which is a performance for a Frenchman (even to this day I sometimes crave for a steak and ale pie, which is impossible to find on the continent). I wanted to love the country and be as integrated as I possibly could... as opposed to most Brits living in continental Europe I might add. I'll never understand it, you have to live a foreign country to appreciate it, not just live IN it. Since my name here is BluncerCity, my blunder is that I never applied for citizenship, I never thought I needed it!

In 2011-12, I decided to go and live in another country for a few years. The idea was to spend 5 years elsewhere and come back "home" to Britain. I chose Romania (yep, contrary to popular belief, it's a wonderful country, I know you won't believe me but hey, your loss). In the meantime, while I was temporarily back in France, the UK voted for Brexit. What was going to happen? Would I be allowed back after having spent 4 years outside of the country? What would happen to my parents? To my brothers? And if I couldn't come back, what would I do with my memories? 18 years worth of them! My friends? Just erase the whole thing and start again somewhere else? Those are considerations that are completely alien to brexiters, to people whose farthest horizons are the nearby pub and whose only literature is the toxic tabloid word.

Politically, I may believe that Brexit is a good development for the EU and for peace, prosperity and the mutual understanding between our European peoples but it's a personal catastrophe for me and my family. But you know what, that's OK. I won't grovel. There is nothing more pathetic than seeing people beg for their rights. I won't do it. You probably don't give a fuck, it's all about the nation. The nation! That's all that matters. Nations aren't made up of individuals whose rights need to be respected, it's justan idea, a patriotic idea, a religion, nothing else!

That same year, I started an eCommerce company. If it wasn't for Brexit, I would have come back to Britain to do that since I spent 3/4 of my adult life there but chose to do it in France instead. With Macron's election a year later, it seems to have been a good move: his government is very friendly to entrepreneurs and small businesses. Hundreds of thousands of people will leave Britain and many more that would otherwise have moved will stay away. Unfortunately for Britain, a large percentage of them are entrepreneurs and people with skills. So Brexiters haven't just wrecked the lives of millions and dishonoured their country in the eyes of most Europeans, they have also hurt their own economic chances.

But hey, why don't we just pick up the pieces of our destroyed lives, all go back to our respective countries and perpetuate ancestral enmities right? Cos that's what nationalism is all about. Right?

So thanks but no thanks!
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Re: Brexit

Postby BlunderCity » 06 Jan 2018, 08:36

nanooktheeskimo wrote:Not sure Uber is really a comparison you want to make. They take heavy advantage of their labor force, and will fold if they ever have to face a union organization by their drivers.

So yeah, not sure if Uber is what you want to hold up as your standard, given how heavily exploitative they are of their drivers.


I'm not holding it as an example to follow, I'm just saying that there was an industry that was so corrupt and so incompetent that they got destroyed by an organisation that dared to do things differently. Macron did the same to the political establishment in France. He combined technology and political tactics already used by other parties in Europe such as Ciudadanos (The Party of the Citizenry) in Spain. The idea was to get non-politicians involved in politics just as non taxi drivers started selling cab rides. To do that, Macron got hundreds of thousands of people to sign up online, organise local committees and nominate candidates from "civil society" to run against incumbent politicians from both the Socialists (left) and the Republicans (right) as well as populist candidates from the far right and the far left.

That disruption is the exact playbook you see from internet startups such as Uber or AirBnb.
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Re: Brexit

Postby BlunderCity » 06 Jan 2018, 09:01

super_dipsy wrote:You interpret that as me suggesting that not supporting it means people want to get out. Absolutely not. What I said was what the survey said - that their attitude to the EU was negative.

What I see now is that THAT is your agenda. You are so keen to make your points that you attribute points to me that I never made. I do not believe I have ANYWHERE said I think lots of EU countries want to leave.


You wrote that in the context of a Brexit contagion to the rest of Europe. So no, while you didn't spell it out, the parallel is clear. What? You take me for an idiot? My point is that, I have seen those stats quoted again and again as proof that many European countries do not support the European project in general and may follow in the UK footsteps. Anyone who has lives in Europe outside of Britain knows that it's not true. Not only that it's nowhere approaching reality. For Eurozone countries, no more than a quarter of the population would be dumb enough to vote for that (mostly people with little savings). The only countries that would conceivably leave the EU (aside from the special case of the "Grexident", a Greece exist that no one wants, not even the Greeks) would be non eurozone countries such as Hungary or Poland. Well if that's the case, then good riddance and good luck with Vladimir Putin!

You also fail to account for the fact that the EU is a traditional scapegoat in politics and there are many reasons for that. But the two main ones are that Britain has exported a toxic brand of europhobia and that national politicians have traditionally used the EU as way to deflect from their own failures. But the reality is that, many people do not really believe the EU is to blame, just as there was a point in the UK where people said things about the EU but did not really believed them. Sadly, after the decades of brainwashing the UK has been subjected to, many began to believe their own lies and the situation is as it is today. And I would hope other European countries do not get infected by the same virus.

Euroskpeticism is a mental illness. Seriously. Losing sleep over regulations on light bulbs or microwave ovens is a mental illness.
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Re: Brexit

Postby super_dipsy » 06 Jan 2018, 09:19

BlunderCity wrote:You wrote that in the context of a Brexit contagion to the rest of Europe. So no, while you didn't spell it out, the parallel is clear.

You're doing it again! You are so fixated on the topic you want to discuss that you continue to misrepresent. Read my first post way back on page 1. I was simply laying out the landscape prior to the Brexit vote. This thread was started to discuss whether Britain should stay or leave (it was started before the vote) and later after the vote became more about what would be the effects / why did people vote the way they did etc.. You keep wanting to turn it into a debate about is the EU a good thing. If you want to have a discussion on that, you might find it best to start a thread called something like 'demolishing the euroscepticism myth' or whatever. But frankly, for my part I have tried a number of times now (gently in my view :) ) to explain that you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I now realize you will continue to do that no matter what I say because that is the discussion you want even though it is not the one I was in. I know when to stop banging my head against a brick wall ;)
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Re: Brexit

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 06 Jan 2018, 09:21

BlunderCity wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:Not sure Uber is really a comparison you want to make. They take heavy advantage of their labor force, and will fold if they ever have to face a union organization by their drivers.

So yeah, not sure if Uber is what you want to hold up as your standard, given how heavily exploitative they are of their drivers.


I'm not holding it as an example to follow, I'm just saying that there was an industry that was so corrupt and so incompetent that they got destroyed by an organisation that dared to do things differently. Macron did the same to the political establishment in France. He combined technology and political tactics already used by other parties in Europe such as Ciudadanos (The Party of the Citizenry) in Spain. The idea was to get non-politicians involved in politics just as non taxi drivers started selling cab rides. To do that, Macron got hundreds of thousands of people to sign up online, organise local committees and nominate candidates from "civil society" to run against incumbent politicians from both the Socialists (left) and the Republicans (right) as well as populist candidates from the far right and the far left.

That disruption is the exact playbook you see from internet startups such as Uber or AirBnb.

I see your point, but I don't think your parallel really works that well. One corrupt system was replaced with a slightly less corrupt but just as if not more exploitative system. Uber is better for consumers, for sure, but it's usually worse for the drivers.

Is that better? I'm not sure. I kinda don't think so, but YMMV (pun intended).
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Re: Brexit

Postby V » 06 Jan 2018, 19:10

Just a quick note (hopefully of reassurance) reference living & working in other countries. I’ve done it most of my adult life so know what I’m talking about. When young I applied for & obtained legal residency in Republic of South Africa, then resident in Lesotho, (temporarily lived in Brazil, not interested residency) then resident (eventually citizen) in USA, now resident in Costa Rica.
Like BC when young where I wanted to live & work was very much a question, not a decision made for me by virtue of nationality (English, by the way).

Don’t view a residency application as “begging for a right”. I never had a “right” to residency anywhere I applied (other than UK of course) but all applications were viewed equitably by relevant authorities. Just a case of learning the rules, making a case that fulfills requirements & processing paperwork. It’s no big deal.

My English sister who lives happily in France is all cut up that with Britain leaving the EU, “What will her rights now be?” It’s not relevant. The French (nor anyone else in this era) are suddenly going to become ogres that take away property or throw you out the country. It’s just tabloid sensationalism that carries no relevance in real life, except stirring up political arguments.

Good luck to BC & all young people, living & working wherever they choose. Having something to contribute is usually all “other” countries require & if you haven’t got that you don’t deserve admittance anyway.
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Re: Brexit

Postby BlunderCity » 07 Jan 2018, 02:12

super_dipsy wrote:
BlunderCity wrote:You wrote that in the context of a Brexit contagion to the rest of Europe. So no, while you didn't spell it out, the parallel is clear.

You're doing it again! You are so fixated on the topic you want to discuss that you continue to misrepresent. Read my first post way back on page 1. I was simply laying out the landscape prior to the Brexit vote. This thread was started to discuss whether Britain should stay or leave (it was started before the vote) and later after the vote became more about what would be the effects / why did people vote the way they did etc.. You keep wanting to turn it into a debate about is the EU a good thing. If you want to have a discussion on that, you might find it best to start a thread called something like 'demolishing the euroscepticism myth' or whatever. But frankly, for my part I have tried a number of times now (gently in my view :) ) to explain that you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I now realize you will continue to do that no matter what I say because that is the discussion you want even though it is not the one I was in. I know when to stop banging my head against a brick wall ;)


Come on! You're just being dishonest. It's pretty clear that the subtext of what you wrote is other countries in the EU could have their own Brexit. This is what you wrote verbatim:

"4. There is a potential for significant contamination across Europe. Many European countries have populations that do not have majority support for the EU. There is a massive democratic deficit between the politicians and the civil populations. Already a number of other countries are starting to agitate about wanting their own referendums. What will this decision mean to the EU as a whole? The pressures (particularly immigration) are not going to get any less over the next few years, and cracks would be a severe disruption to the EU project. Also you have to keep in mind that the UK along with Germany were by far the largest paymasters; removing the UK membership fee will cause ructions. A few months ago the Irish PM said if Britain goes Ireland will probably have to follow because they would not be prepared to pay their share of our net contribution."

It's almost explicit. My point is that, it was never really a threat.

Oh and the whole paragraphs is full of misconceptions from the UK's contribution being vastly higher than anyone aside form Germany to this supposed gaping hole in the EU's finances. Just quite a bit of nonsense packed in a short paragraph.
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Re: Brexit

Postby BlunderCity » 07 Jan 2018, 02:14

V wrote:Good luck to BC & all young people, living & working wherever they choose. Having something to contribute is usually all “other” countries require & if you haven’t got that you don’t deserve admittance anyway.


So if I was a bum with no money and no skill, I wouldn't have the right to live in the country I spent nearly my entire adult life? Where my family and most of my friends live? That right should just be removed because I don't have the right profile, regardless of my history?

Right. Well I know what kind of person you are then.
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