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Re: Jeremy Corbyn

PostPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 11:09
by ferdy0
StarWatcher009 wrote:Anti-semitism is a terrible reason to not vote Cornyn. As is all the stuff about past relations with the IRA. It should come down to policy. Myself, I disagree on many of his economic policies, which is why I wouldn't vote for him.


not supporting a person who is "friends with hamas" I couldnt trust him at all sorry.

Re: Jeremy Corbyn

PostPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 20:42
by StarWatcher009
ferdy0 wrote:
StarWatcher009 wrote:Anti-semitism is a terrible reason to not vote Cornyn. As is all the stuff about past relations with the IRA. It should come down to policy. Myself, I disagree on many of his economic policies, which is why I wouldn't vote for him.


not supporting a person who is "friends with hamas" I couldnt trust him at all sorry.


So instead you trust the person who only ever listens to two people; flip flops on everything and runs through fields of wheat.

Re: Jeremy Corbyn

PostPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 20:13
by joe92
ferdy0 wrote:
StarWatcher009 wrote:Anti-semitism is a terrible reason to not vote Cornyn. As is all the stuff about past relations with the IRA. It should come down to policy. Myself, I disagree on many of his economic policies, which is why I wouldn't vote for him.


not supporting a person who is "friends with hamas" I couldnt trust him at all sorry.

You realise that whole friends with hamas thing is because Corbyn wants to bring about a diplomatic solution to the Israel/Palestine crisis? It was his same attitude to the IRA in Northern Ireland and he played a key role in bringing both parties to the negotiating table. He's a lifelong pacifist, is the furthest thing from an anti-Semite, and to the contrary seems unable to point fault at any religion (something I particularly disagree with him on since they all have huge faults). At least you could give credible arguments like StarWatcher who disagrees with Labours economic policy.

Re: Jeremy Corbyn

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 00:10
by ferdy0
StarWatcher009 wrote:
ferdy0 wrote:
StarWatcher009 wrote:Anti-semitism is a terrible reason to not vote Cornyn. As is all the stuff about past relations with the IRA. It should come down to policy. Myself, I disagree on many of his economic policies, which is why I wouldn't vote for him.


not supporting a person who is "friends with hamas" I couldnt trust him at all sorry.


So instead you trust the person who only ever listens to two people; flip flops on everything and runs through fields of wheat.


Who said anything about me trusting her?

Re: Jeremy Corbyn

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 00:14
by ferdy0
joe92 wrote:
ferdy0 wrote:
StarWatcher009 wrote:Anti-semitism is a terrible reason to not vote Cornyn. As is all the stuff about past relations with the IRA. It should come down to policy. Myself, I disagree on many of his economic policies, which is why I wouldn't vote for him.


not supporting a person who is "friends with hamas" I couldnt trust him at all sorry.

You realise that whole friends with hamas thing is because Corbyn wants to bring about a diplomatic solution to the Israel/Palestine crisis? It was his same attitude to the IRA in Northern Ireland and he played a key role in bringing both parties to the negotiating table. He's a lifelong pacifist, is the furthest thing from an anti-Semite, and to the contrary seems unable to point fault at any religion (something I particularly disagree with him on since they all have huge faults). At least you could give credible arguments like StarWatcher who disagrees with Labours economic policy.


Have you seen the terror tunnels?

They have recently found some under UN buildings http://www.jta.org/2017/06/11/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/terror-tunnel-discovered-under-un-schools-in-gaza. I am all for peace in the middle east. Tell me are you against ISIS or terrorists? how is hamas differant?

PS: didnt check the news report got my details elsewhere.

Re: Jeremy Corbyn

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 12:45
by joe92
ferdy0 wrote:Have you seen the terror tunnels?

They have recently found some under UN buildings http://www.jta.org/2017/06/11/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/terror-tunnel-discovered-under-un-schools-in-gaza. I am all for peace in the middle east. Tell me are you against ISIS or terrorists? how is hamas differant?

PS: didnt check the news report got my details elsewhere.

Yes I am against Hamas, ISIS, and any other organisation which seeks to inflict terror on innocents and destabilise the world. I think Hamas are an evil, despicable group of brainwashed idiots. I think the Israeli government under Netanyahu are not much better. I don't see how an Israeli killed by Hamas is more important than a Palestinian killed by the IDF.

I won't pretend to understand all the sheer complexities of the conflict, but on this topic, I think that Corbyn is best leader for this country in terms of helping bring about peace in the Middle East. He is already standing up to Trump, he has publicly stated that the UK should not sell arms to the Saudi's, and he is the only leader who I have confidence will have the balls to tell Israel when they are in the wrong. For let's not pretend they are never in the wrong.

I don't for one second think he's going to channel a load of guns to Hamas and do everything he can to destabilise Israel's position in the world - he's publicly stated that he thinks Israel has a right to exist, as does Palestine. Not only would that be completely bonkers, but if he did he wouldn't have the resources to achieve any of Labour's other goals - such as saving the NHS, investing in all the public services (did you see the Conservatives cheer after voting against fair pay for nurses, fireman, police etc. yesterday?), making higher education free, re-nationalising the railways and all the other noble goals. If you've ever seen him speak, ever seen his voting record, ever read up on his opinions you'd realise that he's far more passionate about fixing this country than fucking up others. Excuse my French.

Re: Jeremy Corbyn

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 13:36
by Bromley86
joe92 wrote:I think Hamas are an evil, despicable group of brainwashed idiots. I think the Israeli government under Netanyahu are not much better. I don't see how an Israeli killed by Hamas is more important than a Palestinian killed by the IDF.


The difference, to me, is in intent. Generally speaking, IDF members are no focused on killing Palestinians. Hamas, even allowing for the recent change in their charter, are really keen on killing Israelis. The Israelis do not teach their children to hate Palestinians, the Palestinians do teach their children to hate Israelis.

Fair enough, that's their call. But it's inexcusable that European money artificially props up this system, allowing it to continue.

Corbyn would be an absolute disaster for the Middle East, assuming Britain still has relevance there. One only has to look at the results of the Arab Spring to see just what happens to good intentions when they butt up against reality in the Middle East. Would you ever have thought that Hafez al-Assad would be someone you'd wish was in charge or Syria 8 years ago? He killed 20,000 in Homs, but there was no civil war. His son did not, as well as having to deal with less political cover and the effects of social media, and look at where we are now. Presumably Bassel would have done better?

Regarding Trump, he may be the biggest tit to have ever held US office (not my position, but a popular one). However, as a country currently facing a massive amount of uncertainty, not helped by recent events (May!), Britain should be sucking it up and making the most of it. If Trump has fond ancestral memories of Britain, then it's red carpets, state banquets, and a pair of Purdeys. Oh, and please may we have a good trade deal? Instead, you've let France steal the march. Poor show, Britain, poor show.

(Incidentally, the same applies to arms sales. Like it or not, Britain make guns. Arabs like guns. So sell them the guns, or you'll just push them further into the Russian/Chinese sphere.)

Re: Jeremy Corbyn

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 15:01
by joe92
Bromley, you've stated something as fact which is not only unverifiable but from my interactions with the world is wrong.

Bromley86 wrote:The Israelis do not teach their children to hate Palestinians, the Palestinians do teach their children to hate Israelis.

If you can provide the independent sources which prove the statistical analysis to back up this wild claim I'll back down. I can say that because I know you won't find a single source. From my experience I have found that Palestinian's do not hate Israeli's more than Israeli's hate Palestinian's. Both sides are pretty equal in that. Palestinian's do hate the Israeli government though (note the difference between government and people), but who could blame them given the years of apartheid?

On the topic of targeting. Hamas can fairly be compared to the IRA. They are a terrorist organisation fighting for in their minds nationalistic reasons. It can be said that Hamas do want to kill Israeli's. However, for every failed or successful Hamas attack, there are just as many stories of IDF soldiers killing innocent Palestinian's, and often celebrating. While one is a terrorist organisation born out of many decades of economic strife and apartheid, the other is the military arm of a state which has a moral obligation to take the upper ground and exercise restraint.

Corbyn would be an absolute god send for the middle east. A politician who wants peace, rather than to profit from war. How much influence and success he would have is a matter in it's own right, but at last having a leader of one of the richest countries in the world striving for peace in the middle east would be a positive change.

The Arab spring. Interesting you would use that as an argument against Corbyn considering he voted against arming rebels in Syria and voted for a no-fly zone in Libya. You can view his voting record if you like. If he had been in power for the past 7 years the world might be a very different place now.

Re: Jeremy Corbyn

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 17:53
by Antigonos
joe92 wrote:Bromley, you've stated something as fact which is not only unverifiable but from my interactions with the world is wrong.

Bromley86 wrote:The Israelis do not teach their children to hate Palestinians, the Palestinians do teach their children to hate Israelis.

If you can provide the independent sources which prove the statistical analysis to back up this wild claim I'll back down. I can say that because I know you won't find a single source. From my experience I have found that Palestinian's do not hate Israeli's more than Israeli's hate Palestinian's. Both sides are pretty equal in that. Palestinian's do hate the Israeli government though (note the difference between government and people), but who could blame them given the years of apartheid?

On the topic of targeting. Hamas can fairly be compared to the IRA. They are a terrorist organisation fighting for in their minds nationalistic reasons. It can be said that Hamas do want to kill Israeli's. However, for every failed or successful Hamas attack, there are just as many stories of IDF soldiers killing innocent Palestinian's, and often celebrating. While one is a terrorist organisation born out of many decades of economic strife and apartheid, the other is the military arm of a state which has a moral obligation to take the upper ground and exercise restraint.

Corbyn would be an absolute god send for the middle east. A politician who wants peace, rather than to profit from war. How much influence and success he would have is a matter in it's own right, but at last having a leader of one of the richest countries in the world striving for peace in the middle east would be a positive change.

The Arab spring. Interesting you would use that as an argument against Corbyn considering he voted against arming rebels in Syria and voted for a no-fly zone in Libya. You can view his voting record if you like. If he had been in power for the past 7 years the world might be a very different place now.


No surprise but I agree with everything that Joe92 has posted.

Re: Jeremy Corbyn

PostPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 14:08
by Bromley86
Oh, good god, my connection dies just as I posted. So please forgive any mistakes on this second attempt!

joe92 wrote:Bromley, you've stated something as fact which is not only unverifiable but from my interactions with the world is wrong.

It's not unverifiable, but it may be wrong.

If you can provide the independent sources which prove the statistical analysis to back up this wild claim I'll back down. I can say that because I know you won't find a single source. From my experience I have found that Palestinian's do not hate Israeli's more than Israeli's hate Palestinian's. Both sides are pretty equal in that. Palestinian's do hate the Israeli government though (note the difference between government and people), but who could blame them given the years of apartheid?

Regarding textbooks, 49% of Israeli textbooks were negative, compared to 84% of Palestinian ones. As you'd expect, the hard-line, Orthodox Jews, were far more hateful than the average, but at 73% they still couldn't muster the hate that the standard Palestinian texts had. Of course, what is a childish mind without a teacher? I've no direct knowledge of what the Israeli or Palestinian teachers are like. This chap, who as a Gazan is entirely qualified to express an opinion on Palestinian ones, doesn't think highly of them (he doesn't think highly of Israeli ones either, but he couldn't know that from direct experience).

Also, apartheid? Try being a Jew in the Occupied Territories. How does that compare to being an Arab in Israeli proper?

On the topic of targeting. Hamas can fairly be compared to the IRA. They are a terrorist organisation fighting for in their minds nationalistic reasons. It can be said that Hamas do want to kill Israeli's.

Duh! Oh, but didn't they change their charter, so it's all okay now?

Corbyn would be an absolute god send for the middle east. A politician who wants peace, rather than to profit from war. How much influence and success he would have is a matter in it's own right, but at last having a leader of one of the richest countries in the world striving for peace in the middle east would be a positive change.

Are you suggesting that previous PMs (and Presidents), with the possible exception of Bush Jr, have been pro-conflict in the Middle East? They sell arms to the ruling parties, not to factions, and they'd all have liked the pre-2011 status quo to have remained. If he does nothing, he's an irrelevance, so I assume you'd be hoping for a BDS movement? That's not the same as taking a neutral stance.

Certainly, it sucks to be a Jew in Labour at the moment.

The Arab spring. Interesting you would use that as an argument against Corbyn considering he voted against arming rebels in Syria and voted for a no-fly zone in Libya. You can view his voting record if you like. If he had been in power for the past 7 years the world might be a very different place now.


You mean he voted against the Libya no-fly zone, but your point is well made. Certainly, that should endear him to me, as (a) clearly getting involved in Syria would be stupid, unless you were going all-in, and (b) Libya would be a better place for Europe, and I suspect Libya, if Qaddafi was still in power.

However, I believe he was also against attacking IS. That's really the key point. Whether or not the various incursions were sensible, attacking IS is. Libya, I can see both sides. Syria, a little less so. A murderous regime that hates everyone, them I'm happy to see helped to martyrdom.

EDIT: Removed overly argumentative point.