Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Game Over - Mafia Victory!

Moderators: Zoomzip, Telleo, bkbkbk, condude1, sjg11

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Keirador » 09 Jan 2017, 23:33

Telleo wrote:
Keirador wrote:
Telleo wrote:I mean, most of the town seems to think I'm chasing my own tail here. Is this really just completely normal to everyone?

I think this is a waste of time that has been exacerbated by Crunkus being vague, I guess on principle, about directly addressing your question in lieu of demonstrating overall ill regard for the question itself. If I were in Crunkus' shoes and had been asked a similar question about vote timing, I might say something like the following:

"First, there is a significant difference between "I believe I have caught HM in a lie, have you guys looked at this?" and a player coming in and saying "I was the GM in that game and HM is absolutely lying." Moreover, even if such a stark contrast did not exist, I was obviously in the process of developing a case, with many days left in the Day (as it were), and the specific timing of when the name goes up in red doesn't really matter that much compared to the development of the argument, at least not to me. I don't think you imbue red votes with special significance beyond their function, either, so I don't really get why you seem so seriously concerned with the exact timing of a vote that was obviously coming."

PPE: Looks like this issue got jumped on.


See, if Crunkus has said that, this could have been a productive conversation. I still think it's missing the core of my question. I understand that Sjg's confirmation makes his point stronger, and so he votes. I DON'T understand why he doesn't think his case is strong enough to warrant a vote prior to that.

I think we're weighing the difference Sjg made differently. I see it providing a bit more security. I don't see it providing a big enough difference that a Crunkus who believes he's already caught HM now feels confident in a vote. Maybe I'm overstating Crunkus's confidence in his first catch of HM?


I think you're just putting way too much significance on vote timing. There's no hammer in this game, a vote's a vote's a vote and five minutes or a day one way or another doesn't matter much, particularly if the intent is clear. Lots of players, myself included, like to give a little wiggle room for scum to explain themselves, some rope to hang themselves on, and a red vote often shuts down discussion early. Crunkus pretty much said that's what he was doing. SJG coming in and saying "100% confirmed, HM is lying about Fable 8" was enough of a confirmation for Crunk to shut conversation down with HM.
Did you know there’s a faceless old woman who secretly lives in your home? It’s true. She’s there now. She’s always there, just out of your sight. Always just out of your sight.
User avatar
Keirador
 
Posts: 11217
Joined: 01 Dec 2008, 21:36
Location: Living secretly in the home of every single resident of Night Vale
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1132)
All-game rating: (1133)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Keirador » 09 Jan 2017, 23:34

@Telleo, Re: my last post, I noticed HM's slip on my read-through, posted something like "so we're def lynching HM, right?" but still didn't vote for him for, I dunno, another six hours or something. So what? Why aren't you coming at me, bro?
Did you know there’s a faceless old woman who secretly lives in your home? It’s true. She’s there now. She’s always there, just out of your sight. Always just out of your sight.
User avatar
Keirador
 
Posts: 11217
Joined: 01 Dec 2008, 21:36
Location: Living secretly in the home of every single resident of Night Vale
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1132)
All-game rating: (1133)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 09 Jan 2017, 23:35

Keirador wrote:
Happymeal wrote:Objectively, if one believes I'm scum, you are in pretty good hands. There's likely only 2 - 3 scum in this game (3 max probably).


Honestly, if this isn't scum attempting to fake a derpclear, and Happymeal truly cannot be arsed to read four pages of rules, I would hesitate before allowing him to join a game I run. Not a bad play for a scum with few good options, but if this is sincere it's awfully disrespectful to everyone involved.


Basically this. Although if he follows it by saying "shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit ..." I'd get a good laugh out of it.
Proud holder of the Superior Tophat of Solving, an item entrusted with the forum's most prominent smartass
User avatar
mhsmith0
 
Posts: 3616
Joined: 11 Dec 2015, 06:55
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1269)
All-game rating: (1439)
Timezone: GMT-7

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby sjg11 » 09 Jan 2017, 23:37

Telleo wrote:
Keirador wrote:
Telleo wrote:I mean, most of the town seems to think I'm chasing my own tail here. Is this really just completely normal to everyone?

I think this is a waste of time that has been exacerbated by Crunkus being vague, I guess on principle, about directly addressing your question in lieu of demonstrating overall ill regard for the question itself. If I were in Crunkus' shoes and had been asked a similar question about vote timing, I might say something like the following:

"First, there is a significant difference between "I believe I have caught HM in a lie, have you guys looked at this?" and a player coming in and saying "I was the GM in that game and HM is absolutely lying." Moreover, even if such a stark contrast did not exist, I was obviously in the process of developing a case, with many days left in the Day (as it were), and the specific timing of when the name goes up in red doesn't really matter that much compared to the development of the argument, at least not to me. I don't think you imbue red votes with special significance beyond their function, either, so I don't really get why you seem so seriously concerned with the exact timing of a vote that was obviously coming."

PPE: Looks like this issue got jumped on.


See, if Crunkus has said that, this could have been a productive conversation. I still think it's missing the core of my question. I understand that Sjg's confirmation makes his point stronger, and so he votes. I DON'T understand why he doesn't think his case is strong enough to warrant a vote prior to that.

I think we're weighing the difference Sjg made differently. I see it providing a bit more security. I don't see it providing a big enough difference that a Crunkus who believes he's already caught HM now feels confident in a vote. Maybe I'm overstating Crunkus's confidence in his first catch of HM?

Telleo as far as I see it Crunkus' response is two-fold
1. His focus was on developing the actual argument on happymeal and interrogating him so he wasn't really focused on voting at that point, particularly as the vote is a runaway wagon so the exact timing of his vote is unimportant.
2. Me turning happymeal's probable lie into a definite lie makes the interrogation invalid so that's when Crunkus' head starts thinking about when to vote. Which he does at this point.

That's what I got from Crunkus' initial response to you.

@smith: I'm gonna be honest I'm beyond 90% sure that happy's Mafia at this point. And shh... Plague Mafia never happened. (I really need to get around to... conveniently losing... certain games in the Archives)
One of the people in charge of the Mafia forum.
Telleo wrote:The mafia forum, to them,
Sir SJG's known as a gem,
He writes a good game,
and runs it the same,
Oh what a perfect GM!

Come on Arsenal!
User avatar
sjg11
 
Posts: 18325
Joined: 24 Dec 2010, 15:30
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (908)
All-game rating: (899)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Telleo » 09 Jan 2017, 23:37

shadowfriend1 wrote:
sjg11 wrote:Shadowfriend, you putting your name down on the chart suggests that you are ok with the blue-vote plan to the extent that you'd prefer it to plan Telleo.

Okay, in case it wasn't clear the first 10 times I said it.
I don't think we should be blue-voting today to choose our vig target unless we have a solid pick that makes sense in a world in which HM is scum. I never have, and I never will.
Now stop trying to put me on your list.

sjg11 wrote:And your response when I ask for a blue vote is "I'll do what happymeal tells me to do". I mean, if we're going to have the vigging plan you either need to blue vote so that that can pass or you need to start working to actually persuade other people to go for the happymeal plan. You're doing neither currently.

That's because sir Happymeal hasn't shown up yet, likely because he clearly couldn't care less about what happens if he flips town. Because he won't. Don't you see, the less HM cares about this, the less relevant it becomes that we plan for this contingency at all.
Even then, as I've said, I'd be fine with randomly targetting tonight if there are two scum left.
sjg11 wrote:I also factor in a read on Telleo where the logic is odd and doesn't really seem to have much internal consistency and it puts me in a position where I have issues with you.

Cool. Thanks for, you know, laying out your allegations in a way that I can respond to.


Everything about this makes me want to lynch SF.

Shadowfriend1. You think HM is scum. Why aren't you willing to do any work today outside of that one read that no one disagrees on?
Harb wrote:Telleo is gender-bent Chaucer from A Knight's Tale

Moderator of the Mafia Subforum!
Proud Owner of a limited-edition Medal of Idiotic Valor.
"Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun." -Lady Gaga.
Third time's the charm.
User avatar
Telleo
 
Posts: 5473
Joined: 03 Jun 2013, 17:39
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (951)
All-game rating: (908)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Keirador » 09 Jan 2017, 23:39

Telleo wrote:Ok. This is what I've been wanting from you for like 40 odd pages. Nice of you to finally start.

That said, it's not enough.

You've got one scumread on one player. It's not a strong one, it's just "this guy soft defends HM." I'm not disagreeing, I'm just wondering why you don't have anything stronger. Or, you know... anything else at all. You haven't seen anything from any of the other seven players in the past nearly 70 pages?

Also, and this just occurred to me:

Why are you not okay trying to think of reads of people who might be scum, should HM flip town, but you ARE okay backing a plan that requires HM to be town?

I don't really understand this Regina George approach to shadowfriend. Riding somebody for failing to scumhunt always kinda looks like feigned activity to me, but in this case I particularly don't get it. In your experience, does SF usually scumhunt as town to a much greater degree than she's doing here? Is SF the single worst offender for failing to scumhunt beyond Happymeal? Is she worse than, f'rinstance, me? Is she worse than you? Do you have a track record in this game of scumhunting off Happymeal besides pushing SF for not scumhunting?

PPE: Hey, even more of it.
Did you know there’s a faceless old woman who secretly lives in your home? It’s true. She’s there now. She’s always there, just out of your sight. Always just out of your sight.
User avatar
Keirador
 
Posts: 11217
Joined: 01 Dec 2008, 21:36
Location: Living secretly in the home of every single resident of Night Vale
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1132)
All-game rating: (1133)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Telleo » 09 Jan 2017, 23:40

Keirador wrote:
Telleo wrote:There WAS no definitive conclusion with the numbers you gave us. We concluded that the numbers were falsified. Another night's results may well have told us how and where.

Sure. . . but that was the only attempt made without already having the initial rating. And shouldn't it be concerning that if you're given falsified numbers, the whole data set is unusable? What if, and this is like way out there, but what if the scum lie about their numbers? If the objection is to the initial data set, generate a proper one, with somewhere between 0 - 2 players lying about their reported values, and see if mhsmith can solve it to your satisfaction.

What I'm seeing right now is a plurality of the town who seems pretty uninterested in the minutiae of how this plan would work in action, and two strong defenders who are unwilling to put in the "busywork" of demonstrating how we would get to actionable information using only the kind of inputs we'll actually be given. My cup, therefore, does not floweth over with confidence.


Who says that data was unusable? Just because it didn't provide results that very day, doesn't mean it's unusable. Finding out the liars isn't necessarily going to happen immediately, and I've never represented that it would.

Take that same day you ran up. Mock up a N2 results for me. I'll give you more.
Harb wrote:Telleo is gender-bent Chaucer from A Knight's Tale

Moderator of the Mafia Subforum!
Proud Owner of a limited-edition Medal of Idiotic Valor.
"Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun." -Lady Gaga.
Third time's the charm.
User avatar
Telleo
 
Posts: 5473
Joined: 03 Jun 2013, 17:39
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (951)
All-game rating: (908)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 09 Jan 2017, 23:41

sjg11 wrote:...
@smith: I'm gonna be honest I'm beyond 90% sure that happy's Mafia at this point. And shh... Plague Mafia never happened. (I really need to get around to... conveniently losing... certain games in the Archives)

:lol:
yeah that one wasn't a game I'm proud of either. Even though I replaced a scummy-looking slot, it's still one of the closest times I've ever gotten to being mislynched (like 25 long games as town, only one mislynch and that was three masons derp-wagoning me and a VT derp-hammering me because "smith wasn't doing enough and I'm pretty sure he's not a mason")
Proud holder of the Superior Tophat of Solving, an item entrusted with the forum's most prominent smartass
User avatar
mhsmith0
 
Posts: 3616
Joined: 11 Dec 2015, 06:55
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1269)
All-game rating: (1439)
Timezone: GMT-7

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Telleo » 09 Jan 2017, 23:43

mhsmith0 wrote:
Keirador wrote:...
I'm with Telleo on this one. The whole issue is that the process around your read is very opaque to non-mhsmith players. When someone asks for clarification, responding with "well what do you think my process might have been?" definitely comes off as scum who doesn't have a great answer to the question. "Turning a question around" is most assuredly a form of declining to answer.


Turning a question around also demonstrates curiosity about the questioner's thought process, and is fundamentally null at worst, unless you have reason to believe that I couldn't explain my thought process.


If you can't explain your thought process, it's most likely because there's a lie there that you're covering up. The lie in itself isn't necessarily scummy. This insistence that it's fine and doesn't need to be explained kind of is.

Telleo wrote:...

If this were fair engagement, no one would ever get anything answered. I'd ask you what you were thinking, you'd ask me what I thought you were thinking, I'd ask you what you thought I thought you were thinking, and so on ad nauseam.

If you had answered my question, THEN it would have become reasonable to try to delve into my thinking. But you don't get to skip explaining yourself to demand that I do your work for you.


It would be ludicrous to do that for every question. That does not make it unreasonable to do it for SOME questions.


Wrong. Just... wrong. You can't apply your logic selectively. You can't say it's okay for you to not answer questions about your process, but that sometimes it won't be okay to not answer.
Harb wrote:Telleo is gender-bent Chaucer from A Knight's Tale

Moderator of the Mafia Subforum!
Proud Owner of a limited-edition Medal of Idiotic Valor.
"Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun." -Lady Gaga.
Third time's the charm.
User avatar
Telleo
 
Posts: 5473
Joined: 03 Jun 2013, 17:39
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (951)
All-game rating: (908)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Telleo » 09 Jan 2017, 23:46

shadowfriend1 wrote:
Telleo wrote:SF, literally out whole engagement has been about you not scumhunting and not trying to make your reads clear to the thread. Why do you think Sjg is blue-voting you? Is it because you didn't put a name in blue? Or is it because you're refusing to do any work in thread towards actually catching scum, and your lack of blue vote is a symptom of that?

No it's not.

I'm not blue voting because blue votes are only relevant if Happymeal is town.

If Happymeal is town, we all have to look at the game very differently.

I'm not going to do that when he's so obviously scum.

That's what blue voting is for. That's the only time it is relevant. It has nothing to do with finding scum, it has to do with finding scum in the context of HM being town.

If he's town, I have a much better way to choose our lynch target. We can just ask him as a cleared townie who we should kill.

Therefore blue voting is a waste of time.


So if HM is town, you see no value whatsoever in having people's thoughts about each other on record? You don't think that there's any reason it might be helpful to know who scumreads who?
Harb wrote:Telleo is gender-bent Chaucer from A Knight's Tale

Moderator of the Mafia Subforum!
Proud Owner of a limited-edition Medal of Idiotic Valor.
"Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun." -Lady Gaga.
Third time's the charm.
User avatar
Telleo
 
Posts: 5473
Joined: 03 Jun 2013, 17:39
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (951)
All-game rating: (908)
Timezone: GMT

PreviousNext

Return to Game Threads

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests