Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Game Over - Mafia Victory!

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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Jordan767 » 15 Jan 2017, 06:59

If you read Keirador's ISO for day 2 (the way I recommend is to click smith's link on page 1, then change sort to ascending by time and go to page 8), then you'll note that most of what he says about smith is originally from sjg, Crunkus, or even me. And the voteworthy material for him is smith's vote on me, a player he was null-scum on. He now townreads me apparently, and refuses to vote on me, a player he was null-scum on, over smith, a player who he seems to have been null on until then, which is something I'm not all that clear on. Would appreciate clarification. Why was he not engaging to find out the nature of smith's read on me before voting for it, if that was what was potentially massively scummy to him?

Also note him doubling down on his smith read when challenged on it, despite sharing my concerns that the behavior isn't indicative so much as it is potentially indicative.

Conclusions: Keir seems to be contributing very little to the smith lynch. He is taking large parts of his case from Crunkus, sjg, or me, and taking far less heat for it than I am. His read on me is suspect in its mutability and the difference between his stated reads on smith and me and the way he votes. And if he was dissatisfied with the case on me but felt that overall I was lynchable and also vaguely dissatisfied with his current vote, why was he not delving deeper into either of them (especially the potential case on me)? He also appears to be strategically agreeing with me and defending me and I can't help but think that he may be trying to pocket me (also note my expressed concerns about this towards the end of day 1). Plus while this may be hypocritical coming from me, his interaction today has been little wider than mine until his recent discussion about the readability of ZZ's substitution and like me he seems to be uninterested in alternatives to smith's lynch. Come to think of it I don't know why this would be that scummy but if it's scummy for me it's scummy for Keirador, right?

Keir would be an acceptable vote for me tomorrow.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Keirador » 15 Jan 2017, 07:26

Oof, if that's the best you've got, tomorrow is going to go rough for you.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Jordan767 » 15 Jan 2017, 07:28

To do overnight:

reread sjg's ISO and comment on it

reread any and all reasons that have been given to townread these two players (IIRC there are some? I'll check) so I can make sure I'm not just being stupid

make sure my tone-townlean on Crunkus is something that actually makes sense
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 15 Jan 2017, 07:39

Keirador wrote:Oof, if that's the best you've got, tomorrow is going to go rough for you.

I'm definitely not sold on the case, fwiw, but OTOH I don't feel like you're obvtown at all. Could you talk a bit about why you were arguing that my going after Jordan in the first place was scum-indicative? IIRC it either wasn't explained well or I just didn't understand your points.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Keirador » 15 Jan 2017, 07:46

mhsmith0 wrote:
Keirador wrote:Oof, if that's the best you've got, tomorrow is going to go rough for you.

I'm definitely not sold on the case, fwiw, but OTOH I don't feel like you're obvtown at all. Could you talk a bit about why you were arguing that my going after Jordan in the first place was scum-indicative? IIRC it either wasn't explained well or I just didn't understand your points.


Is it your understanding that your case on Jordan was an early or important component of my read on you?
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 15 Jan 2017, 07:47

My recollection was you'd specifically cited "town smith would be pushing elsewhere" when you voted.

Specifically
http://playdiplomacy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 60#p889233
Keirador wrote:By the way smith's push at Jordan is enough for a vote for me. I'd been waiting to see where smith chose to push and whether he would push at an ally/friend or more neutral party (I was trying to stay more neutral to potentially be that target, I think sjg is roughly in that space as well). He's not doing that, which could have been a strong countervailing towntell for me. As is, it kinda looks like he's trying to collect/pocket potential allies and refrain from aggravating or accusing more neutral parties in case they can become allies down the road.

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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 15 Jan 2017, 07:48

So when you ask whether it was an important component, given that you cited it as what caused you to vote, I would say yes. I am fully aware there were other considerations, but that was a specific citation in your voting logic, so I would think that it was a material issue for you.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Keirador » 15 Jan 2017, 07:52

It was explicitly not a scumread, I didn't find it scum-indicative. I thought pushing at an ally or potential ally would be a "countervailing town-tell," and I was waiting to see if you'd do that before voting you. You didn't, but that by itself was never scum-indicative for me.

I think I'm far from obvtown, and I would certainly expect to be lynched before Telleo and ZZ. But these particular reasons are garbage.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 15 Jan 2017, 07:53

Anyway, I'm flipping town, and while things obviously haven't gone the way I hoped they have, hopefully the rest of the game is a better experience for everyone.

Good luck, make sure to think through the mechanics, especially late, and make sure to spend the rest of the day phases spreading conversations as wide as possible covering as many topics as is productive. Unless there's a mechanical lock wolf, in which case just go ahead and pop bottles.

Good luck!
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 15 Jan 2017, 07:54

Keirador wrote:It was explicitly not a scumread, I didn't find it scum-indicative. I thought pushing at an ally or potential ally would be a "countervailing town-tell," and I was waiting to see if you'd do that before voting you. You didn't, but that by itself was never scum-indicative for me.

I think I'm far from obvtown, and I would certainly expect to be lynched before Telleo and ZZ. But these particular reasons are garbage.


*shrugs* then maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention. Or maybe it wasn't clear enough. But I recall it seeming odd to me. You're still not at the top of my list so I'd hope the game is over well before it even potentially becomes relevant.
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